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The MMO "Elitist" culture, or how I became a "Baddie". (WoW)

Aug 18, 2009#1

Chazwozel

Since the other one got locked. Here... Chaz free discussion...

So since everyone thinks I say nothing negative about WoW, I am going to post something that has been on my mind lately. It came to the front just a few days ago after some questionable heroic dungeon runs that left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. While this is mostly about WoW, it would be interesting to hear other peoples stories involving this shift and if such have appeared in other MMOs. I don't have enough end game experience in most of the other MMOs out right now to really know.

So a few days ago I am running the new heroic dungeon added for 3.2 on one of my alts, a rogue with a few blues (good gear) and purples (great gear). I had done the place before on her without a hitch, even ended up finishing out the achievement on that run, but I ran into a problem that really pushed what I hate about WoW, the "elitist" community and the nature of dungeons and raids on my server.

We start the first fight, and the two other DPS vastly outgear me. They are both in purples attained from Ulduar. This is normally not a problem as long as I pull my weight. On the first boss alone I worked hard to keep the shaman interrupted, stunned when I could, basically rather then just concentrating on pure DPS I concentrated on making life easier for the tank and healer. I died at one point thanks to my own mistake of moving the wrong way out of a whirlwind from the warrior boss, but I quickly ran back and into the fight without missing a beat. I was greeted with one of the DPS posting the "damage meters". "Karon, were you even playing? Your DPS sucks ass." came one of the epiced out DPS. The other DPS soon joined in, "You are a baddie", the tank had to come out and defend me but I just stayed silent, I was not going to deal with people like that.

I took a step back and considered what was going on. I had fought to do my part, I didn't wait for a ress and instead ran back so I could continue helping, and didn't actually do horrible DPS based on my gear level, but since the other two DPS vaslty outgeared me and did much more DPS, I was now a "Baddie" AKA "A bad player". I stood back and thought back to how people ask for groups on my server now, mostly raids.

"LFM Naxx10. WoWHeroes 2300+ GEARED RUN, KICK BADDIES. PST Stats/Score/Achievement"

For those not in the know, Naxx10 is probably the lowest raid you can do at 80. What is that asking above? WoWHeroes is a "Gear Score" website that takes all your gear and gives it a rating. 2300+ is Ulduar quality gear meaning there is little reason to even run Naxx, but if you don't have gear HIGHER then Naxx, they don't want to take you. Asking for Achievement means they want you to post that you have done the instance, so new players need not apply. What do they consider a "baddie"? Anyone that does not know the ins and out of every fight and makes a mistake because no one ever explains it to them and thus they are instantly kicked out, that is, if they even make it into the raid at all.

This is the culture I feel has take over way more of the end game these days. In order to get the gear and learn the raids, you need to already have the gear and already know the raids, because no one will take you otherwise. You can look for a guild willing to run with you, but they will most likely tell you to bring one character and one character only, so that leaves you alts out in the cold (As my guild has done to me). Has it really gotten so bad that heroics, extremely easy instances, are now going to start requiring WoWHeroes?

"LFM Chain Heroics, GEARED GROUP, No Baddies. WoWHeroes Score will be checked."

Oh... No wonder one of the most popular WoW websites is called "Elitist Jerks"

Really, as much as I love the game, the community of "Elitists" are probably going to be what ends up pushing me out. They have been around for a long time but it only feels worst and worst this time around. I am very glad I am not a new player because I probably would hate WoW if I started it right now.

_________________
Orc Hunter 80, Blood Elf Paladin 80, Orc Rogue 80, Troll Shaman 80, Blood Elf Death Knight 80, Undead Mage 73.

Report this post To thank for the message of the author: ScytheRexx

Aug 18, 2009#2

blotsfan

But I don't play World of Warcraft! I have a life!

Aug 18, 2009#3

Hailey Knight

Hey, this is a Chaz-free topic, so we can say whatever we want and he can't respond!

Aug 18, 2009#4

Gusto

But back on topic.

Yeah I don't play WoW anymore and this is pretty much why. My favourite part of the game became leveling because I couldn't stand te endgame bullshit. And eventually I realized tat there was no other point to leveling.

I can honestly state that I retired a complete and total noob, but at least I had hours of fun at the time, and I have some decent memories.

Aug 18, 2009#5

Chazwozel

escushion said:
Hey, this is a Chaz-free topic, so we can say whatever we want and he can't respond!

You wish. I won't respond to the topic at hand; any digs at me are free flaming game. :toocool:

Aug 18, 2009#6

Hailey Knight

Damn.

Anyway, I've never reached endgame in any capacity. When I had regular WoW, I didn't make it to 60 before BC. I made it to 70 just as Lich King came out. I may make it to 80 before the next expansion just because of my fiance. I do see the crappy messages and I'm unsure if we'll progress much in endgame besides doing 5-man heroics. We apparently have a couple people wanting to bring us into an endgame raiding guild, but I'm not sure I care to do so.

Aug 18, 2009#7

R

Raemon777

Despite making it to 80 fairly quickly I am still a noob by any meaningful standard. I'm really frustrated that a lot of the coolest content is in dungeons, and I'd love to be able to explore them with people who aren't familiar with them and make mistakes and learn from them and figure out the puzzle elements on my own (or with people who also have not figured it out yet) but there's always someone who already knows it by heart and explains everything beforehand. It makes me sad.

Aug 18, 2009#8

Shannow

I leave work to go to the gym, and come back to this!? Damn, but read that over, that shit was getting hilarious!

Aug 18, 2009#9

Rob King

Raemon777 said:
Despite making it to 80 fairly quickly I am still a noob by any meaningful standard. I'm really frustrated that a lot of the coolest content is in dungeons, and I'd love to be able to explore them with people who aren't familiar with them and make mistakes and learn from them and figure out the puzzle elements on my own (or with people who also have not figured it out yet) but there's always someone who already knows it by heart and explains everything beforehand. It makes me sad.

This.

I loved when I was pretty early in the game and my brother and I were both noobs. He would grind, while I explored and read up on the mythos of the area/characters/world, completing most quests, and reading the text in each. When I explained it to him, he loved it, but wasn't interested in learning it himself.

Eventually he surpassed me (because he was grinding while I was reading quest logs), and started pushing me through instances and quests at a rate I didn't like. I liked it enough to keep playing with him, because I didn't want to fall TOO Far behind. But I did miss leisurely* wandering around the world in awe.

* - As leisurely as one can on a PvP server where you're outnumbered by several orders of magnitude.

Aug 18, 2009#10

A

AngelofBitterness

This kind of crap occurs everywhere. People who do anything long enough to know it inside out tend to always look down on others who try to reach the same goal but aren't there yet. It's sad and pathetic because those same people were once like that as well.

But it's also in branches like art - I've met my fair share of "artsy" people who thought their farts smelled like roses and who thought their view of life was better than that of others.

Last week, a woman was here at work (I'm a graphic designer in a printing office) to make sure her design was properly printed. She had put her hair in a kind of mohawk, wearing designer glasses, weird earrings, colourful clothes, etc. She looked like she was a reject from a mix of 80's movies. Instead of telling the printers "more magenta" or "more cyan" she went "no no, I want that image to jump out, grab you!" and when we told her that increasing the strength of the colours would affect all the other colours outside the picture too, she got moody and when we dared to point out that the fault was in her design because she should have made the colours stand out in the design itself, she acted as if she couldn't possible have made such a mistake, being such a great designer as she was.

When we suggested altering the design, she refused.

I guess people reach a certain level within their range of interest where they feel they have earned the right to look down on those who haven't yet. Sadly enough, many of these are badly mistaken and aren't anywhere near as good as their ego tells them. As someone who has also studied to be a hardware specialist, I've seen WAY too many "professionals" giving wrong and bad advice to customers (like: 'no no, don't use Vista! Use Windows XP 64bit! Runs much better!' :eyeroll: ).

Aug 19, 2009#11

EsteBeatDown

AngelofBitterness said:
As someone who has also studied to be a hardware specialist, I've seen WAY too many "professionals" giving wrong and bad advice to customers (like: 'no no, don't use Vista! Use Windows XP 64bit! Runs much better!' :eyeroll: ).

You had me up until this point.

Aug 19, 2009#12

A

AngelofBitterness

EsteBeatDown said:
AngelofBitterness said:

As someone who has also studied to be a hardware specialist, I've seen WAY too many "professionals" giving wrong and bad advice to customers (like: 'no no, don't use Vista! Use Windows XP 64bit! Runs much better!' :eyeroll: ).

Click to expand...

You had me up until this point.

Seriously? Don't tell me you're part of the uninformed crew who would recommend Windows XP 64 despite it having tons of driver issues. Half our work software won't even receive support when running on that OS and most companies have stopped supported it on the whole so you won't even get updated drivers or drivers for new hardware. Creative drivers never even left beta before they pulled the plug!

Aug 19, 2009#13

DarkAudit

AngelofBitterness said:
EsteBeatDown said:

AngelofBitterness said:

As someone who has also studied to be a hardware specialist, I've seen WAY too many "professionals" giving wrong and bad advice to customers (like: 'no no, don't use Vista! Use Windows XP 64bit! Runs much better!' :eyeroll: ).

Click to expand...

You had me up until this point.

Click to expand...

Seriously? Don't tell me you're part of the uninformed crew who would recommend Windows XP 64 despite it having tons of driver issues. Half our work software won't even receive support when running on that OS and most companies have stopped supported it on the whole so you won't even get updated drivers or drivers for new hardware. Creative drivers never even left beta before they pulled the plug!

Creative is a bad example. It was nearly a year after Vista released that their Vista drivers for the X-Fi series left beta. Still no real open source drivers for the Linux community. They blame others for the failings of their 64-bit Vista drivers.

Aug 19, 2009#14

Shakey

There still isn't any need to use XP over Vista unless you have less than 2gig ram.

Aug 19, 2009#15

Rob King

Shakey said:
There still isn't any need to use XP over Vista unless you have less than 2gig ram.

Or unless you like to use computers that don't make you want to defenestrate it and yourself every ten minutes.

Aug 19, 2009#16

I

Icarus

Shakey said:
There still isn't any need to use XP over Vista unless you have less than 2gig ram.

*EDIT whoops misread your post*

If it's just office software, of course there's no need to switch to Vista. Heck, Windows Me will do most of the job just as well. Windows XP will run most recent software just as fine, but you won't get much if any performance advantage over Vista (with some exceptions of course).

Modern games actually run slightly worse in Windows XP because drivers are geared towards Vista not to mention that graphics cards released in the past few years were designed for Vista (DX10) - and that goes for a lot of hardware actually. The Intel I7 CPUs perform better in Vista due to it having much better multi-core code (after all, XP was built before 64bit CPUs even existed - let alone modern quad cores). XP is very primitive and incompetent in handling multi-core CPUs with a lot of instability in games that use multiple cores. When using Vista instead, you often get 20-30% increase in performance (and even more) because of this.

In the end, companies know fully well that Windows 7 will be the next big OS and that Vista is nearly identical in terms of drivers so why would they invest more time in a dying OS. If you don't have Vista yet, it's a smart move to get Windows 7 which is now being sold very cheaply (I got my copy for $70).

-- Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:07 pm --

DarkAudit said:
Creative is a bad example. It was nearly a year after Vista released that their Vista drivers for the X-Fi series left beta. Still no real open source drivers for the Linux community. They blame others for the failings of their 64-bit Vista drivers.

It's not like Creative is the only one - Logitech and other big companies have followed suit with at least some of their hardware. HP doesn't even have Windows XP 64 drivers for at least some of their new PCs (which I found out the hard way when they decided to upgrade a brand new PC to XP 64).

Windows XP 64 is a dead end, full stop. Only a fool would recommend it over Vista (unless it was free), which will inevitably lead to Windows 7.

Aug 19, 2009#17

ScytheRexx

This thread sure has had an interesting life. :rofl:

I personally use Windows XP 64bit, not had any problems with it. I skipped Vista due to an issue I had a year or so ago, but I am excited for Windows 7. :unibrow:

Aug 19, 2009#18

SpecialKO

For my part, I use OSX.

The elitist attitude in endgame raiders is pretty irritating. On Moonrunner, it's particularly bad among the folks doing PUG OS25/VoA25 runs. I actually think OS/VoA is part of the problem because I've noticed that since its easy to get high-level gear quickly through those instances, the people in them tend to be both pretty bad players for their gear level and also the loudest about doing gear-checks.

That's why I like my guild; anyone can join as long as they're not dicks, you can have any number of alts, we don't gear check, we just expect you to be able to play your class/raid role by the time you start raiding. I think we would have liked the guy quoted in OP, that sort of thing is exactly what we want our raiders to do.

Aug 19, 2009#19

I have an admission.

Last night I reactivated my WoW account. I didn't get to play because I was patching, but I paid for it. :slap:

Aug 19, 2009#20

Bellygrub

Edrondol said:
I have an admission.
Last night I reactivated my WoW account. I didn't get to play because I was patching, but I paid for it. :slap:

I re-upped last week after not having played since January. It must be something in the air

aranoid:

Aug 19, 2009#21

TNM

I quit WoW Because of the endgame bs. I can't sit around waiting on people to get a raid together, even in a clan, then wipe, then half the people have to take a smoke break, etc. That and all the "Sorry your gear is too sad to come on this raid." How in the hell was I suppose to get better gear if I can't go on any raids? Save up 10k and buy certain items but still not be able to join up. Leveling another character is too painful (damn having to walk everywhere again). I enjoyed most of WoW up until the end. Now with the recent update it basically adds new levels. Ok, reach that then more of the same. It would be great if Blizz added some content for casual players that can't devote the entire weekend to a endgame area.

TF2 fills my gaming need now and a one time $9 price is much more economical. :humph:

Aug 19, 2009#22

Shakey

I've never been on a raid, I figure being on dialup I wouldn't be very useful. The heroics I have done I haven't run into it though. I'm on Moonguard, which is a RP server, so that could be why. I'm working on leveling my druid right now though, so I haven't tried the new dungeons. Some of the most fun I have are with groups that don't care how well it goes and just enjoy themselves. I'd rather die 3-4 times and have fun instead of having a quick run where no one says a word.

Aug 19, 2009#23

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
I'd rather die 3-4 times and have fun instead of having a quick run where no one says a word.

This is how I like to run also. One of my friends is notorious for actually trying to make fights harder then they need to be. We will be fighting like 5 elites and suddenly he runs in and fears them all over the place, sometimes pulling another 3-4 elites that I have to grab on my tanking paladin. Most of the time we succeed, but a few times we wipe, and we don't care.

Some people take it way to seriously though. I don't know if I posted this in the other thread, but I was once in a VoA PuG that after a single wipe, a dozen people dropped from the group yelling out how much everyone ELSE sucks. No patience in some players. We ended up replacing all of them with random DPS and proceeded to kill both bosses without breaking a sweat.

Aug 19, 2009#24

Shegokigo

TNM said:
Ok, reach that then more of the same. It would be great if Blizz added some content for casual players that can't devote the entire weekend to a endgame area.

You mean like 5mans, achievements, and 10man versions of the 25man instances?

Aug 19, 2009#25

R

Raemon777

I think Blizzard has tried their hardest to make the endgame casual accessible. The problem is inherent in a multiplayer community that big. I haven't run into the "you suck newb" problem (I'm on a RP server, not sure how much that helps) but I actually AM pretty hard on myself for not being good enough to hold my own. Getting in (even on a 5 man) in the DPS slot is hard because that's what everyone wants, and my tanking skills are mediocre at best, and the only way to practice tanking is by, well, tanking, which means I'm practicing using other peoples' time, dollars and gold.

And again, my biggest beef is not being able to experience even the 5 man instances in a casual, experimental way, because everyone already knows them.

Aug 19, 2009#26

Shannow

Raiding from the bar adds so much to end game.

-- Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:42 pm --

also...30% through 77 now, about to gain another 7 or 8 %

Aug 19, 2009#27

I

Idocreating

The problem is this mindset comes from experience.

I've only had a few occasions, but stupid and terrible people who cannot play there class that well and will make you wonder how the smeg they got to level 80 will quickly frustrate many people. They will want to avoid playing with bad players, so they will judge people based on their gear as most gear requires some skill to get (Not all though, some geared people are phenomanally stupid compared to someone who just hit 80) in order to avoid them.

Of course, this isn't the best system but it's the only one people have to help filter out bad players from their group. It's a part of WoW that really needs some form of improvement, like a feedback system perhaps.

Aug 19, 2009#28

Vrii

Well, I may have something of a different perspective on this, given that I'm guild leader and raid leader for a reasonably successful raid guild, but let me chime in anyway.

First of all, with regards to gear and achievements: they're the only way to reasonably judge before starting a run whether someone is likely to be able to contribute at all. If they're full-epic and have the achieve for clearing the instance or raid, you can expect them to pull their weight. If they're in blues and have never finished it, it's a crapshoot. And given that I'm on a roleplay server (Moon Guard as well), the average player you can pick up is bad. AFK every 5 minutes, no idea how to play their class, inability to follow simple directions, etc. So yeah, if we're looking to add someone to a moderately challenging run I'm a little bit elitist about it.

Talking about applicants to the guild, the standards are even higher. Every person in the guild is representing all of us in every run they go on. We pride ourselves on being skilled players as well as decent people, and our reputation on the server is good because of it. Nobody gets an invite without proving themselves on at least one raid with us, and we'll turn them down if their performance isn't good enough. Maybe that's elitist, but it reduces the stress on the rest of us, and that goes for runs outside the guild as well.

Aug 19, 2009#29

Shegokigo

It's part elitest, part intelligence and part less stress.

I think the problem here Vrii, is people stuck at the "end" of the casual experience of WoW and wanting to move up to the "elite" part of WoW and running into issues.

Aug 19, 2009#30

SpecialKO

Maybe it's just the server population making the difference, but my guild doesn't mind too much whether you've run the place before as long as you listen to directions. We'll prefer the guy who has run it before, but people have to learn somehow.

Moonrunner is a little funny. We have so many people who gear up on OS/VoA exclusively that a guy decked out in ilvl226 is just as likely to be a n00b in Naxx as a guy in ilvl186, and I'll take a guy in 186 who listens over a douche who geared up to 226 without ever setting foot in Naxx but doesn't listen to people because his gear is so l33t.

Aug 19, 2009#31

Vrii

Oh, I absolutely agree that attitude trumps gear, and that gets taken into account with people applying to the guild. When you're just looking to fill a couple spots on a run, though, you don't really get a chance to judge that.

And Shego, I see what you mean, but I'm not sure it's that hard if you go about it right. Maybe it's different on other servers, but on mine there are a fair number of guilds who look for people who can and will regularly sub in to fill out their raids. They obviously aren't the best of the best, but it'd likely be a good way to get into raids, get some gear, and work towards catching the eye of a better guild, if that's what people want.

On the other hand, if you're just looking to pug the raids with no commitment...well, that involves running with the people who don't have a guild to run with. And for the most part, it's because they're socially retarded or terrible at the game. A lot of times both.

Aug 19, 2009#32

Chibibar

This is the reason why I quit WoW. I can't stand the raid group attitudes toward lower gear folks. People raid to GET gear. How can you be gear if you are not allow in raid?

I play some DDO and loving it cause I met some people that are more easy going (I'm sure there are some on WoW too) when it comes to raid.

This is my take on the matter.

As long you do your job and the party is alive, then I don't care the numbers. If a rogue made the life of the tank and healer easier, then you are doing a good job.

Aug 19, 2009#33

Shannow

Woot, almost 78! Should ding my end of work!

Aug 19, 2009#34

nufan

For the OP.
I've had pretty much the same thing happen to me. No matter where you go eventually that attitude will come up, just a matter of time.

Also, recently delt with some BS during a guild run of an instance. I backed off and haven't used the character since. think i will break him out today and see what's up.

Gear and gear score drive a lot of people.

I can agree with Shego's point of making the transition from casual to 'elite' being an issue. People want to raid but they don't want to pwnz0rs it. Each guild I have been in it has always been about the next thing, which is fine for them. They have played for years and years they don't care about story or the fun, they just want to be the best on the server.
I got tired of that and went back and leveled different classes and such. I have too many alts lots of alts and i like playing them all. Just depends on my mood. I had to find a way to make the game fun again, and I found what works for me.

Aug 19, 2009#35

I

Idocreating

TNM said:
It would be great if Blizz added some content for casual players that can't devote the entire weekend to a endgame area.

I challenge you to find another MMO in the style of WoW that has a more casual friendly endgame. You won't find one, Blizzard has made it a goal to try make it easier for casual players to raid, they just didn't count on the playerbase being idiots when it came to getting members for a simple Naxx 10 pug.

Speaking from the perspective of a former hardcore raider, Blizzard never really seemed to understand that the problem with the raids was never the difficulty with them, it was the time commitment and that a lot of players, for whatever reason, would not be able to put aside a few hours on a certain night for uninterupted gaming.

This is at least one of the good things about that latest collessum raid in 3.2, it's just boss fights and you can easily swap people in and out with little fuss if someone has to go. Unfortunately i left WoW a few months ago as Blizzard has turned the game into a snoozefest for me in it's casual push. It's too damn easy. None of the bosses in Ulduar gave me the same kind of cheer as anything in the previous expansion because it took just a few attempts to get it right, the sense of an epic accomplishment in downing a raid boss and getting a rare shiny bit of shiny gear has been diluted in the casual push.

Granted, the increased amount of gear going around was always a fair thing, but it doesn't stop it feeling less cool. I was more miffed by the realisation that i would never spend a few weeks trying to crack a boss, we'd get it in a few attempts. Combined with a bunch of other issues, that's why i quit.

Improving the game for casuals is always a good thing. Dumbing it down so thickos can play it will only lead to it's demise.

Aug 19, 2009#36

Chibibar

Idocreating said:
TNM said:

It would be great if Blizz added some content for casual players that can't devote the entire weekend to a endgame area.

Click to expand...

I challenge you to find another MMO in the style of WoW that has a more casual friendly endgame. You won't find one, Blizzard has made it a goal to try make it easier for casual players to raid, they just didn't count on the playerbase being idiots when it came to getting members for a simple Naxx 10 pug.

Speaking from the perspective of a former hardcore raider, Blizzard never really seemed to understand that the problem with the raids was never the difficulty with them, it was the time commitment and that a lot of players, for whatever reason, would not be able to put aside a few hours on a certain night for uninterupted gaming.

This is at least one of the good things about that latest collessum raid in 3.2, it's just boss fights and you can easily swap people in and out with little fuss if someone has to go. Unfortunately i left WoW a few months ago as Blizzard has turned the game into a snoozefest for me in it's casual push. It's too damn easy. None of the bosses in Ulduar gave me the same kind of cheer as anything in the previous expansion because it took just a few attempts to get it right, the sense of an epic accomplishment in downing a raid boss and getting a rare shiny bit of shiny gear has been diluted in the casual push.

Granted, the increased amount of gear going around was always a fair thing, but it doesn't stop it feeling less cool. I was more miffed by the realisation that i would never spend a few weeks trying to crack a boss, we'd get it in a few attempts. Combined with a bunch of other issues, that's why i quit.

Improving the game for casuals is always a good thing. Dumbing it down so thickos can play it will only lead to it's demise.

while it is true that 10 man raid are gear toward casual, I always thought that the 25 version are much harder and gear toward more "elite" players.

I can totally understand when a raid group want X stats for 25, but shouldn't have too high a requirement for a 10 man one.

Aug 19, 2009#37

Hailey Knight

10-man raids IS casual as far as I'm concerned. I've actually got a shot at seeing Arthas. I do not anticipate this with Illidan until the level height gets so high I can solo him.

Aug 19, 2009#38

SpecialKO

escushion said:
I do not anticipate this with Illidan until the level height gets so high I can solo him.

A good group could probably 10-man him now.

Aug 19, 2009#39

I

Idocreating

Chibibar said:
Idocreating said:

TNM said:

It would be great if Blizz added some content for casual players that can't devote the entire weekend to a endgame area.

Click to expand...

I challenge you to find another MMO in the style of WoW that has a more casual friendly endgame. You won't find one, Blizzard has made it a goal to try make it easier for casual players to raid, they just didn't count on the playerbase being idiots when it came to getting members for a simple Naxx 10 pug.

Speaking from the perspective of a former hardcore raider, Blizzard never really seemed to understand that the problem with the raids was never the difficulty with them, it was the time commitment and that a lot of players, for whatever reason, would not be able to put aside a few hours on a certain night for uninterupted gaming.

This is at least one of the good things about that latest collessum raid in 3.2, it's just boss fights and you can easily swap people in and out with little fuss if someone has to go. Unfortunately i left WoW a few months ago as Blizzard has turned the game into a snoozefest for me in it's casual push. It's too damn easy. None of the bosses in Ulduar gave me the same kind of cheer as anything in the previous expansion because it took just a few attempts to get it right, the sense of an epic accomplishment in downing a raid boss and getting a rare shiny bit of shiny gear has been diluted in the casual push.

Granted, the increased amount of gear going around was always a fair thing, but it doesn't stop it feeling less cool. I was more miffed by the realisation that i would never spend a few weeks trying to crack a boss, we'd get it in a few attempts. Combined with a bunch of other issues, that's why i quit.

Improving the game for casuals is always a good thing. Dumbing it down so thickos can play it will only lead to it's demise.

Click to expand...

while it is true that 10 man raid are gear toward casual, I always thought that the 25 version are much harder and gear toward more "elite" players.

I can totally understand when a raid group want X stats for 25, but shouldn't have too high a requirement for a 10 man one.

10 mans aren't necessarily for casuals. What they ARE however are smaller raids that are easier to get people for.

10 man 3 drake Sartharion was one of the last bosses at launch to be defeated. Whilst 10 mans are easier to field players for, they allow much less room for error.

One guy dies in a 25 man = 1/25 raid loss. One guy dies in 10 man = 1/10 raid loss. There's several bosses in Wrath that are easier to execute on 25 than 10. The 10 man mode is just there for those who have trouble fielding 25 people in the roles you need, which was a common problem for casual players in The Burning Crusade.

Aug 19, 2009#40

Shegokigo

Hard Mode 10man isn't for casual.

10man regular mode is by far MUCH easier for casuals than 25man regular mode. By a long shot.

Aug 19, 2009#41

X

XP-Dolphin

25 man normal mode of the new instance is designed for casual play though too. Ulduar wasn't that bad either in normal modes. The hard modes, both 10 and 25, are more geared towards elite and good players. I think they are viewing normal modes of both sizes for the more casual crowd with the 10/25 distinction for how you want to manage people/friends as a raid and/or guild.

Rexx, I agree in your regular post that asking for a 2300+ score for Naxx10 is very very excessive. First tier stuff and heroics are pretty damn easy and do not in any way require that level of gear. Though on my server, I don't see such strict requirements as often. I took my greens/blues hunter through heroics easily enough when I first leveled him. Though I am not big into alts. My hunter is basically it.

Aug 19, 2009#42

ScytheRexx

XP-Dolphin said:
Rexx, I agree in your regular post that asking for a 2300+ score for Naxx10 is very very excessive. First tier stuff and heroics are pretty damn easy and do not in any way require that level of gear. Though on my server, I don't see such strict requirements as often. I took my greens/blues hunter through heroics easily enough when I first leveled him. Though I am not big into alts. My hunter is basically it.

This in the end I feel is my largest problem. I for all intents and purposes can be considered an altaholic. I have various classes all in the high level range, including 5, and soon 6, LvL 80 characters. When the expansion first came around finding PuG raids was not an issue since no one had the gear, so people in order to get the gear, had to go with people in blues and heroic purples. Add on the fact I was raiding Naxx with my main, and everything seemed fine.

Now, however, I am starting to get more of my alts in the high level range, and the "gear score" issue has started to appear to me creating a player driven "ceiling". My hunter and paladin already have decent scores, so I have no issue getting them into raids of most levels, but my rogue and shaman barely are chosen for heroics, and my death knight is never asked for anything these days. One guy actually got angry that my DKs DPS, when my best item I had gotten for her at the time was the Spiked Titansteel Helm, did lower DPS in a REGULAR ToC then the other Death Knight in full Scourgeborne. This is regular ToC, otherwise known as "LOLPURPLES" That seems to be what I find appearing more and more on my server, and I just had to vent my frustration of it.

At the very least, Blizzard has allowed us the chance to get Ulduar quality loot through badges. In the end, anyone, even newcomers, should be able to get Ulduar quality gear over time without even stepping foot inside Ulduar. The issue will go down as I run more groups with my friends. I just noticed that, as a newcomer that may not have that, the environment can get very hostile.

I am thinking of switching servers to one a bit more friendly, I just hope I can get my friends to come with me.

Aug 19, 2009#43

I

Idocreating

A "friendly" server in an MMO?

Is that like the Ark of the Covenent, the Holy Grail and Excalibur?

Aug 19, 2009#44

ScytheRexx

Idocreating said:
A "friendly" server in an MMO?

Is that like the Ark of the Covenent, the Holy Grail and Excalibur?

No, those are easy to find. I use Excalibur to open my mail in the morning.

irate:

Aug 20, 2009#45

KCWM

As far as I understand it:

Quest Blues and Instance gear gears you for heroics, which gear you for Naxx 10 and 25 (depending on how many purples you have), which gears you for Ulduar 10/25, etc.

It is possible to gear to an Ulduar 10 ready gear score simply by getting purple 200s out of heroics and crafted gear. Now that normal ToC drops purple 200s and can be run multiple times, it's possible to gear up even faster. Heroic ToC drops 219 gear, so it becomes even easier to get Ulduar 10/25 gear.

My wife plays a druid and recently switched her off spec from Resto to Feral (for cat) and by utilizing both heroic and normal ToC, we will be able to gear her up in epic gear except for 4 slots. If I recall correct, those were ring, chest, trinket, and idol. You can get a 200 purple chest by maxing out Ebon Blade rep, you can get a DPS or Tanking ring made by Jewelcrafters, a nice feral staff drops in Heroic Violet Hold, and a purple idol can be bought with 15 badges (herosim). Ulduar 10 ready. I haven't checked the drops in there for other classes, but I assume that something similar is doable.

We regular run normal ToC with 4 people (tank, healer, two DPS) and it takes about 20 minutes a run. Rinse and repeat.

Gear score goes a long way. My guild has raided and carried people with scores under the suggested amount and, let me tell you, as a healer or tank, it makes my job a lot harder when they don't have the gear. Whether it's too little hit, too little mana, or not enough DPS because their haste and/or crit isn't up to speed, it makes it harder. Fights go on longer, healing becomes more frantic. I'm not going to withhold someone because they don't have the gear, but if i had to choose between them and a character who WAS geared, I think the decision is an easy one.

Aug 20, 2009#46

Shegokigo

And how do you judge someone by their gear score if it's an alt? I think that was one of the original points.

Aug 20, 2009#47

X

XP-Dolphin

ScytheRexx said:
XP-Dolphin said:

Rexx, I agree in your regular post that asking for a 2300+ score for Naxx10 is very very excessive. First tier stuff and heroics are pretty damn easy and do not in any way require that level of gear. Though on my server, I don't see such strict requirements as often. I took my greens/blues hunter through heroics easily enough when I first leveled him. Though I am not big into alts. My hunter is basically it.

Click to expand...

This in the end I feel is my largest problem. I for all intents and purposes can be considered an altaholic. I have various classes all in the high level range, including 5, and soon 6, LvL 80 characters. When the expansion first came around finding PuG raids was not an issue since no one had the gear, so people in order to get the gear, had to go with people in blues and heroic purples. Add on the fact I was raiding Naxx with my main, and everything seemed fine.

Now, however, I am starting to get more of my alts in the high level range, and the "gear score" issue has started to appear to me creating a player driven "ceiling". My hunter and paladin already have decent scores, so I have no issue getting them into raids of most levels, but my rogue and shaman barely are chosen for heroics, and my death knight is never asked for anything these days. One guy actually got angry that my DKs DPS, when my best item I had gotten for her at the time was the Spiked Titansteel Helm, did lower DPS in a REGULAR ToC then the other Death Knight in full Scourgeborne. This is regular ToC, otherwise known as "LOLPURPLES" That seems to be what I find appearing more and more on my server, and I just had to vent my frustration of it.

At the very least, Blizzard has allowed us the chance to get Ulduar quality loot through badges. In the end, anyone, even newcomers, should be able to get Ulduar quality gear over time without even stepping foot inside Ulduar. The issue will go down as I run more groups with my friends. I just noticed that, as a newcomer that may not have that, the environment can get very hostile.

I am thinking of switching servers to one a bit more friendly, I just hope I can get my friends to come with me.

Well, there is another route too. Not sure how much success you might have with it, but you could flex your main for your alt. Many times when hunting groups for my hunter, I would do it on my druid. However, I may have had help with that just due to my guild tag. Sometimes I underestimate the value of that. But I think if you can flash achievements from your main showing competence, smart players will take your alt at a slightly lower gear level than they desire.

Aug 20, 2009#48

Shegokigo

XP-Dolphin said:
Well, there is another route too. Not sure how much success you might have with it, but you could flex your main for your alt. Many times when hunting groups for my hunter, I would do it on my druid. However, I may have had help with that just due to my guild tag. Sometimes I underestimate the value of that. But I think if you can flash achievements from your main showing competence, smart players will take your alt at a slightly lower gear level than they desire.

Except, you know, you'd rather being doing stuff ON your alt while waiting for a group invite instead of sitting in Dalaran with your main spamming the LFG channel.

Aug 20, 2009#49

I logged on to my 80 rogue last night for the first time in 6 months. I've forgotten how to play.

Aug 20, 2009#50

Shakey

Hal said:
I logged on to my 80 rogue last night for the first time in 6 months. I've forgotten how to play.

Don't forget to check your talents. They have probably been reset since then.

Aug 20, 2009#51

X

XP-Dolphin

Shegokigo said:
XP-Dolphin said:

Well, there is another route too. Not sure how much success you might have with it, but you could flex your main for your alt. Many times when hunting groups for my hunter, I would do it on my druid. However, I may have had help with that just due to my guild tag. Sometimes I underestimate the value of that. But I think if you can flash achievements from your main showing competence, smart players will take your alt at a slightly lower gear level than they desire.

Click to expand...

Except, you know, you'd rather being doing stuff ON your alt while waiting for a group invite instead of sitting in Dalaran with your main spamming the LFG channel.

Yeah, but you can do that too by having them armory your main or just swap for proof. Usually though when I found a group for my alt while on my main I was just doing stuff on my main at the time and saw the message asking for dps.

Aug 20, 2009#52

Shegokigo

Hal said:
I logged on to my 80 rogue last night for the first time in 6 months. I've forgotten how to play.

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/
There ya go! Enjoy the next 9hrs of reading! :twisted:

Aug 20, 2009#53

Shegokigo said:
Hal said:

I logged on to my 80 rogue last night for the first time in 6 months. I've forgotten how to play.

Click to expand...

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/
There ya go! Enjoy the next 9hrs of reading!

...6 months later...

Yeah, I had to reset my talents. Couldn't remember whether I was Combat or Sub. I was Combat for leveling and Sub for PvP. Not enough money yet to dual spec thanks to raping the toon to transfer a mule to another server.

Aug 20, 2009#54

Lally

A friend of mine keeps begging me to play WoW with her but things like this thread (not the elitist players, any game is going to have those, but just all the learning and time investment that seem to be involved) are what keeps me out of it. Seems too much like work. :bush:

Aug 20, 2009#55

Lally said:
A friend of mine keeps begging me to play WoW with her but things like this thread (not the elitist players, any game is going to have those, but just all the learning and time investment that seem to be involved) are what keeps me out of it. Seems too much like work. :bush:

When you first start learning how to play and start a character from level 1 it's a fricking blast, especially if you are (1) on a non-PvP server (for a casual gamer, which you seem to be) and (2) with friends.

It's not until you get to the very end game where you start to run into assholes.

Unless you are in the Barrens.

Aug 20, 2009#56

Lally

I actually used to play on a MUD and I was pretty hardcore about it (both the gameplay/pvp and RP), and that's what made me think that I would love WoW... seems like the same sort of game, but with graphics instead of text. But, that was such a small game (it suffered the same fate you were afraid the forum would suffer -- dwindling numbers and no fresh blood) it was easier to be really good at it. That's another thing that keeps me away from WoW. The MUD I was part of was a much smaller game, with what I imagine had to be less of a time commitment, and it was still a huge timesuck for me. I have the kind of obsessive personality that if I'm interested in something, I want to be an absolute expert at it. I guess that's why I've shied away from WoW for so long, knowing that I would work and work and work to be an expert, and no one wants that.

But I am still tempted.........

aranoid:

Aug 20, 2009#57

SpecialKO

Lally said:
A friend of mine keeps begging me to play WoW with her but things like this thread (not the elitist players, any game is going to have those, but just all the learning and time investment that seem to be involved) are what keeps me out of it. Seems too much like work. :bush:

If your friend is going to start a lvl 1 char of her own to play with you, you'll have a blast. There's so much stuff to do and try out, and the learning curve isn't that steep.

However, if she's a 80 already, it can be really rough and frustrating trying to catch up with people, and it does require a big time investment and learning. You'll spend hours powerlvling your char to 80, and then you still won't be ready to play with people in the endgame.

I don't mean to scare you away (I play quite a lot after all and love it), but leveling together is a totally different, and far more rewarding, experience than playing catch up.

Aug 20, 2009#58

Shegokigo

Leveling is fun. Leveling with a friend is twice as fun.

WoW is what you make it. Only have a few hours a day to play? Then you can set goals for that kind of time commitment. Obviously there will be certain things you won't be able to do, but like Hal said, that's mostly going to be the final 10% of the game. Which is also completely optional and there are plenty of other things to do other than "4 hour raids for gear".

Aug 20, 2009#59

Shannow

Leveling is not fun after the first time >.<

Aug 20, 2009#60

Shegokigo

Shannow said:
Leveling is not fun after the first time >.<

I guess that's subjective as I took different paths each time and at least 4 of my characters had 70-80% unique leveling experiences.

Aug 20, 2009#61

Shannow said:
Leveling is not fun after the first time >.<

It is if you stick close to the beginning areas or switch factions. And the "new" races have different feeling beginning areas than the "old" races.

Aug 20, 2009#62

AshburnerX

Edrondol said:
Shannow said:

Leveling is not fun after the first time >.<

Click to expand...

It is if you stick close to the beginning areas or switch factions. And the "new" races have different feeling beginning areas than the "old" races.

Try "Better Designed with better rewards" over "feeling different".

Aug 20, 2009#63

R

Raemon777

If the rumors for Cataclysm are true, you probably want to wait until that comes out.

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