We get it, you vape (vaping questions)

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#1
So how about an unhealth question? I'm curious about vaping, and wondered if anyone here does it or could offer advice. My main goal with vaping would be the delivery of nicotine into my body. What are your experiences with it, what do you use, and where can you buy it?
 
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#2
So how about an unhealth question? I'm curious about vaping, and wondered if anyone here does it or could offer advice. My main goal with vaping would be the delivery of nicotine into my body. What are your experiences with it, what do you use, and where can you buy it?
That's my main goal too. I don't really care so much about the "clouds" I can make or any of that crap. I just want the drug in my face. I've been vaping since the days where you had to import everything from China.

Currently, I'm using a Smok Alien. https://www.vapordna.com/SMOK-Alien-220W-TC-TFV8-Baby-Beast-Full-Kit-p/smalen.htm

It's a smooth draw, and works well. But pretty much any starter kit will do ya, and there are some that are far cheaper. If there's a vape store near you, they will let you try out various options, and also help you set it up for the first time, so it's preferable to do that if you're a newb.

Considerations:
  • Atomizers (though now called "coils"): These are disposable/replaceable. They're the part that heats up and produces the vapor. In the old days, these lasted like a week. Now they last between 2-8 weeks, depending on brand. You will want to pick a vape product that will have easily-replaceable coils. I was once stuck with a vape where there was only one place that sold the coils, and when they quit carrying them, I hadda buy a whole new setup.
  • Batteries: Most vapes use 18650 batteries. They will eventually wear out. Don't cheap out on these. Whenever you hear of a vape exploding (which is very rare), it's a battery failure. Get a good charger that will auto-detect when the battery is charged and stop charging.
  • Juice is the most often recurring cost. It should cost considerably less than smoking cigarettes. But prices vary widely. Local stores can be 2-3 times more expensive than shopping on the internet. I like http://www.ecblendflavors.com/ as they're cheap, fast, and reliable compared to some flavors. I've shopped here pretty exclusively for the last 2-3 years. Use checkout code "10020" for 20% off your already-cheap order. (By comparison, the local smoke shop Avail sells 15ml bottles for $19. Ec Blend sells 30ml bottles for $8ish)
  • Juices have lots of flavor options. Anything with citrus gives me heartburn, which is almost everything, so I vape burbon flavor.
  • Juices have lots of "blend" options these days. I like 60/40 PG/VG (60% propylene glycol, 40% vegetable glycerine) which produces a nice smooth smoke, and 18mg of nicotine (which is on the strong side)
  • Cartomizers are a ripoff--that's where you get a pre-filled cartridge with an atomizer and juice already in it. It's always far more expensive than if you just get a tank vape, fill the juice yourself, and replace the coils at need.
If you wanted to skype or webex or something someday so I can show you some stuff hands-on, I'd be happy to do it.
 
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#3
Does anyone know if there's been any conclusion on the safety of breathing atomized propylene glycol? I got the feeling there was some concern about that. Better than tobacco smoke, obviously, but I'd heard there were studies being started.

Also Cartomizers sound like the Keurig of vaping.

--Patrick
 
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#4
Does anyone know if there's been any conclusion on the safety of breathing atomized propylene glycol? [...]. Better than tobacco smoke, obviously
--Patrick
That's what Big Glycol would have you think! WAKE UP SHEEPLE!

Oh, no, wait. Ahem.

Some studies are ongoing but AFAIK nothing's been really proven one way or the other. And long term effects will, by necvessity, have to wait for a while. How your lungs react 20 years down the line, well, good luck fniding that out now.
 
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#5
Does anyone know if there's been any conclusion on the safety of breathing atomized propylene glycol? I got the feeling there was some concern about that. Better than tobacco smoke, obviously, but I'd heard there were studies being started.

Also Cartomizers sound like the Keurig of vaping.

--Patrick
Here's the article people keep pointing out:
https://gizmodo.com/why-e-cigarettes-might-not-be-as-safe-as-you-think-1589485508

It's three years old, and the big problem is not that people are ingesting propylene glycol, which appears to be safe even in very, very large doses:

https://www.fda.gov/food/ingredientspackaginglabeling/gras/scogs/ucm261045.htm

The issues are:

1. There are components other than PG involved (particularly with shady suppliers)
2. Some devices run hotter, causing the PG to turn into something else rather than simply atomizing it.
3. PG, atomized, in small doses does have negative effects on certain cell types, particularly stem cells. No one yet knows what this means, though many are taking this as a sign that it may be ok for adult consumption and an excuse to restrict it from minors similar to regular tobacco and similar products.

Given how large, diverse, and nascent the industry is right now, there's simply no way to run a study that would provide actionable information anyway. Every device operates slightly differently, every mix is different, etc. The FDA last year gave itself ability to regulate e-cigarettes, then demanded they undergo the same testing as regular cigarettes (probably at the behest of the tabacco lobby) and stopping new products from entering the market. However summer 2017 they relaxed those rules, in an effort to move people away from tobacco to vapor based ona study that showed a significant decline in smoking due to vaping.

They make no claims that they are safe, merely that they are safer.
 
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#8
They need a mascot to talk about the dangers, or some depressing PSA-style silhouette videos with "Nick O., Teen vaper" or something.
Or maybe they need to educate about what addiction is and how to recognize the signs of it before they're 12, mebbe?

--Patrick
Yeah, I expect that to start happening right around the time we stop treating addiction as a weakness, or something only the poor, mentally ill, and minorities fall prey to.
 
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#9
Unfortunately, no one likes prevention work. As in we are so underfunded and undermanned it's ridiculous. Plus, people believe it is healthier than cigarettes. Generally true if you're a current smoker of tobacco products. Not true at all if you're a teenager or young adult who has never smoked anything. So this perception of being a healthy alternative to cigarettes means prevention work in this area is dismissed as fear-mongering or the government trying to keep money flowing into Big Tobacco. Strange thing is, some studies on the effects of vaping in the teen & young adult population has shown that youth who vape are more likely to start smoking cigarettes (I don't have any links on hand atm and I'm writing this as I get ready for work).

Plus many prevention programs and initiatives (hi it's me) have already added a vaping component to their education/information presentations. Some states/localities have PSAs, but many of them focus on doom and gloom - which does not work in dissuading anyone from behaviors long term. Putting out a positive message (like saying the majority of kids don't vape or that many parents don't allow their kids to use ecigs) isn't always received well by the community stakeholders though. since they want the old depressing PSA. People really hate hearing that you want to take a harm reduction approach, too. "You're just enablers!"

A big problem with tweens and teens is the ease of access when it comes to e-cigarettes and e-liquids. I tested this out myself. Go online. Look for vape pens. Try to purchase one. There is nothing asking about verification of age. Not even a little drop down box like on alcohol sites. I found this out from a few counseling clients. We believed they were getting the stuff from parents or older friends. Nope. Just buy it online.

Jeez. You'd think I do this for a living or something.
 
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#10
Unfortunately, no one likes prevention work. As in we are so underfunded and undermanned it's ridiculous. Plus, people believe it is healthier than cigarettes. Generally true if you're a current smoker of tobacco products. Not true at all if you're a teenager or young adult who has never smoked anything. So this perception of being a healthy alternative to cigarettes means prevention work in this area is dismissed as fear-mongering or the government trying to keep money flowing into Big Tobacco. Strange thing is, some studies on the effects of vaping in the teen & young adult population has shown that youth who vape are more likely to start smoking cigarettes (I don't have any links on hand atm and I'm writing this as I get ready for work).

Plus many prevention programs and initiatives (hi it's me) have already added a vaping component to their education/information presentations. Some states/localities have PSAs, but many of them focus on doom and gloom - which does not work in dissuading anyone from behaviors long term. Putting out a positive message (like saying the majority of kids don't vape or that many parents don't allow their kids to use ecigs) isn't always received well by the community stakeholders though. since they want the old depressing PSA. People really hate hearing that you want to take a harm reduction approach, too. "You're just enablers!"

A big problem with tweens and teens is the ease of access when it comes to e-cigarettes and e-liquids. I tested this out myself. Go online. Look for vape pens. Try to purchase one. There is nothing asking about verification of age. Not even a little drop down box like on alcohol sites. I found this out from a few counseling clients. We believed they were getting the stuff from parents or older friends. Nope. Just buy it online.

Jeez. You'd think I do this for a living or something.
so if I dont at the moment do this, I should not start no matter how cool everyone says it is? im just asking for a friend...
 
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#11
Of course we don't think you do this sort of thing for a living! You're in Hawaii, so clearly, you're either a surfer, a tourist guide, or...errr....a shark wrangler? Something like that. Possibly a PI, I guess.;)

Joke aside, prevention is always more thankless, and almost always more effective. Drugs, crime, disease, diet,... you name it. It's easier to "see what your money is doing" in repression. Users arrested, criminals jailed, patients cured, weight lost - they're all easily quantifiable. People who never started, people who never turned to crime, diseases prevented, weight never gained...you can't see it. It's money or effort "wasted" on something that wasn't there/wasn't necessary. And there's no really good way to escape that way of thinking - almost everyone does it to some degree.
 
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#13
Somehow, I can't imagine seeing you and/or the hubby driving around Maui in a red 328 with a Detroit Tigers baseball cap.
 
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#16
I can attest that my school has a year long focus on tobacco use prevention. And that e-cigs are big part of the eduction to show kids that it can be just as bad for you as smoking.

The problem, in addition to everything else people in this thread have said before, is that teenage brains are hardwired to overvalue reward and undervalue risk. This leads to a mentality of “Addiction does sound bad, but it’s not going to happen to me. I just take a few hits once in a while, I don’t have a problem like those other people.”

It means ANY message that contradicts their desire to do something pleasurable has to compete with their brain screaming “YOU’RE GONNA BE FINE, GO AHEAD, BAD THINGS ONLY HAPPEN TO OTHER PEOPLE.”
 
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#17
So, when we @Aislynn and I went to the doctor this week, we each had to answer a new question - do you, or have you ever, used a portable vape device, for weed or nicotine. Two weeks ago they started tracking info for the nationwide outbreak of popcorn lung thought to be associated with vaping. Now, Juul's CEO says:

"Don't vape. Don't use Juul," Juul CEO Kevin Burns said in an exclusive interview with Tony Dokoupil for "CBS This Morning." "Don't start using nicotine if you don't have a preexisting relationship with nicotine. Don't use the product. You're not our target consumer."
So... no more vaping for us, except for dry herb vaping off of a tabletop device.
 
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#20
So, when we @Aislynn and I went to the doctor this week, we each had to answer a new question - do you, or have you ever, used a portable vape device, for weed or nicotine. Two weeks ago they started tracking info for the nationwide outbreak of popcorn lung thought to be associated with vaping. Now, Juul's CEO says:



So... no more vaping for us, except for dry herb vaping off of a tabletop device.
Yeah, ultimately I decided to just not, I'll just stick to caffeine for stimulants
 
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#21
Wait so to be clear, that doesn't happen if I put flower into a vape?
The main concern that researchers have linked to popcorn lung so far (Harvard study from 2015 and more recent clinical data) has been the use of Diacetyl as a flavoring or as a bi-product of an incomplete hydrocarbon extraction purge. I believe the Harvard study found, at that time, that 39 of the 51 flavored vape juice/carts were using Diacetyl as an ingredient in their flavorings. More recently, additional concerns have been raised about the damage caused by vaping hot vegetable glycerin or the other common carrier liquid used in both nicotine and THC vapes. Dry herb vaping doesn't use those additives - there may be trace amounts of the elements of concern in the plant itself, but not the same concentration as an additive or a carrier liquid.

Now, for what it's worth, I contacted one of the major THC vape pen brands in Oregon, Select, and asked them if there was any Diacetyl or any other additives in their cartridges, and the response I got back was that their cartridges "contain only 100% cannabis extract and cannabis derived terpenes." I've been using Select pens for two years, have never had any complaints, and yeah - they used to charge way too much ($70/gram in Oregon when we moved here 2 years ago, vs. $30 or $40 a gram in WA at that time), but they've seriously dropped their prices, and their Select Elite line routinely tests out in the upper 90% for THC concentration, which would leave just enough room for some terpenes for flavor.

So, for me personally, I'm going to be sticking to Select and any other brand that is willing to certify (in writing at least) that they don't use any additives; or stick to my dry herb vape. YMMV.
 
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#23
Looks like we have an update with a potential culprit, at least for those cases found in NY - Vitamin E Acetate. Vitamin E Acetate is not an approved ingredient for inhalation in the state of New York, but it is an approved ingredient for topical applications, where it's usually used to change the viscosity of the final product. The issue comes with off-label applications of the additive, where (primarily black market) producers are using the additives to thin down the cannabis oil in their pens so they can get really crappy extractions to draw smoothly and thoroughly.

This jives with the information Leafly published regarding off-label usage of these additives following the Oregon death from July. Still wish they'd release the names of the devices that are showing up on the west coast, though. I know on the east coast it's primarily Dank brand pens - which are all knock-offs to begin with.
 
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#24
So...Tocopheryl Acetate, then.

I know there's already an advisory of sorts about excessive vitamin E oil in products, but I can't remember what it was about, and all I can seem to find is that it interacts with blood thinners to make them even blood thinnier.

--Patrick
 
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#25
So...Tocopheryl Acetate, then.

I know there's already an advisory of sorts about excessive vitamin E oil in products, but I can't remember what it was about, and all I can seem to find is that it interacts with blood thinners to make them even blood thinnier.

--Patrick
The concern I have (well, one of them) is that some less-than-completely-ethical less scrupulous legal producers could easily be using this to thin down their cartridges, and since Vitamin E occurs naturally in cannabis, they could still technically list only "cannabis extract, cannabis derived terpenes" in their ingredients. Also, for the love of all that's good and holy, why doesn't Firefox know the word "terpenes" yet? They're used every day in thousands of applications, in everything from beer and OJ to perfume and air fresheners.

Edit: I knew there was a faster way to say that.
 
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#26
Recently published study from University of Utah Medical Center regarding lipid-laden macrophages in the lungs of 100% of their vaping-related illness patients. Extremely small sample size (n=6 at time of study, n=10 at time of publication).
 
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#27
So the insides of your aveoli shouldn't be coated in a fine layer of Pam?

--Patrick
 
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