Washington D.C. to Wal-Mart: We're raising minimum wage... but just for you

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Okay, not just Wal-Mart... but mostly.
Story here:

Wal-Mart faceoff with DC fuels minimum wage debate


SAM HANANEL
WASHINGTON (AP) — The bitter standoff between Wal-Mart and Washington, D.C. officials over the city's effort to impose a higher minimum wage on big-box retailers is fueling a wider debate about how far cities should go in trying to raise pay for low-wage workers — and whether larger companies should be required to pay more.

Wal-Mart, the nation's largest private employer, is fuming about a "living wage" bill approved by the D.C. Council that has an unusual twist — it would apply only to certain large retailers, forcing them to pay employees at least $12.50 an hour. That's nearly 50 percent higher than city's minimum wage of $8.25 an hour. The measure is being cheered by unions and worker advocates who have long complained about Wal-Mart's wages and working conditions. Opponents call it an unfair tactic that will discourage companies from doing business in the city.

Wal-Mart has threatened, if the bill becomes law, to cancel plans for three of the six stores it hopes to build in some of the city's poorest neighborhoods that are sorely in need of economic development. The measure is now before District of Columbia Mayor Vincent Gray.

Some economists say targeting large retailers or other industries that can afford to increase wages may be an effective way to raise pay to even higher levels than a broad-based minimum wage. The district's bill applies to stores of 75,000 square feet or larger and annual corporate revenues of at least $1 billion.

"A large retailer can more easily absorb a pay hike than a corner store," said Arindrajit Dube, an economics professor at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and a prominent supporter of raising the minimum wage. Large stores are "less likely to shut down or cut back on employment" in response to such an increase, he said. But Dube cautioned that a targeted hike might make it harder for Wal-Mart and other big box stores to pass on the wage hike as a price increase since smaller retailers could still keep prices low.

The minimum wage in the nation's capital already is higher than the federal rate of $7.25 an hour. Other cities and states that have sought to raise the minimum wage above what is required have applied the hike to all businesses. San Jose, Calif., recently raised its minimum from $8 to $10 an hour and San Francisco's rate of $10.55 an hour is the highest in the nation. Still, no other city has singled out certain businesses for higher wage rates. The Chicago City Council tried to pass a similar measure seven years ago, but it was vetoed by then-mayor Richard M. Daley. Opponents have suggested the district's bill may be subject to a legal challenge, but those prospects are uncertain.

President Barack Obama has proposed raising the federal minimum to $9 an hour and boosting it annually to keep pace with inflation. Many Wal-Mart workers already make $12.50 an hour — the rate set by the district's bill — or more, but the average sales associate earns $8.81 per hour, according to IBISWorld, an independent market research group.

Wal-Mart spokesman Steven Restivo questioned why the district measure excluded unionized stores such as Safeway and Giant, suggesting the bill is specifically targeting non-union stores. He said most of the company's 1.4 million workers are full-time and about 75 percent of the store's management teams started as hourly associates. The average pay of full-time workers is between $50,000 and $170,000 a year, Restivo said.

David Neumark, an economics professor at the University of California Irvine, has argued that raising the minimum wage is bad for workers because it discourages employers from hiring and leads to fewer jobs. He said Wal-Mart's low prices are more important to helping low-income workers. "We can talk about wages, but if you can lower prices, that's as good as raising wages," Neumark said. "And of course helps a lot more people."

Forcing Wal-Mart to raise its salaries could create more gradual pressure on smaller businesses to boost wages over time, said Michael Reich, an economics professor at the University of California, Berkeley. "A lot of people would be trying to get jobs at Wal-Mart," he said. "That labor market pressure is going to raise wages at smaller stores, just because Wal-Mart is such a big employer."

But business groups call the idea outrageous and unfair. "By any analysis this is a really flawed proposal that's also very discriminatory," said David French, senior vice president of the National Retail Federation. "The assumption is that retailers make a lot of money, therefore they can pay higher wages and therefore you can impose higher costs by fiat," he said. "That doesn't necessarily reflect reality." Retailers are typically low-margin businesses, French said. While they move a lot of products, he said retail profitability is less than many other similarly situated businesses.

The district measure could also affect other retailers like Best Buy and Macy's. Business groups are also concerned a precedent-setting law in Washington, D.C., could see similar laws crop up elsewhere. "The political forces that have brought the D.C. Council to the brink of economic suicide are the same political forces at work in other cities," said French.

There is ample precedent for living wage laws that impose minimum wages on companies doing business with state and local governments. More than 140 cities and counties across the country have enacted such laws that require businesses receiving government contracts or subsidies to pay workers a rate higher than the federal or state minimum wage. In 2007, Maryland became the first state to enact a living wage bill, which currently requires employers with state contracts to pay either $12.49 an hour or $9.39 an hour, depending on where the services are performed.
TL;DR version:
Any corporation in Washington D.C. that makes over 1 billion dollars in revenue at any store larger than 75,000 feet would have a different minimum wage compared to other companies ($12.50/hour compared to DC's usual $8.25/hour). Unless the store has unionized, since those stores are exempt.

Is this a good idea, or a bad one? Why?
 
The article fails to explain why they wouldn't raise the minimum wage across the board. It sounds like they are targeting big non-union business unfairly, which would result in a court case and probably millions of dollars the government would have to spend defending itself.
 
The article fails to explain why they wouldn't raise the minimum wage across the board. It sounds like they are targeting big non-union business unfairly, which would result in a court case and probably millions of dollars the government would have to spend defending itself.
From the article:
"Some economists say targeting large retailers or other industries that can afford to increase wages may be an effective way to raise pay to even higher levels than a broad-based minimum wage. The district's bill applies to stores of 75,000 square feet or larger and annual corporate revenues of at least $1 billion.

"A large retailer can more easily absorb a pay hike than a corner store," said Arindrajit Dube, an economics professor at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and a prominent supporter of raising the minimum wage. Large stores are "less likely to shut down or cut back on employment" in response to such an increase, he said."
The logic was that the "big-box" stores can afford it. And because they can afford it, they should be forced to pay it.
 
And because they can afford it, they should be forced to pay it.
Isn't that just forcing poor people into the arms of abusers?

"Well, I could work at the corner grocery, they are awesome employers, but I need the extra $4/hour I can get at walmart, even though it's a soul sucking void."
 
They still meet the billion dollar revenue requirement, so no dice. This law did everything but specifically mention Wal-Mart, and the only way they can avoid it is not have stores in DC.
Not if they form franchised corporations that hold just enough stores to be under the limit.

In fact, they could form a walmart franchise just for DC.
 

Zappit

Staff member
Doesn't Walmart realize they'd get a chunk of that wage increase back? Employees are more likely to buy from their own store due to convenience, employee discount, etc...Now that Walmart is incorporating grocery sections, their employees would likely buy more food items from them, too.

How many people who have worked in that type of retail environment haven't spent a good portion of their wages there? I worked at a three letter pharmacy, and did quite a bit of shopping there. So did everyone else who worked there. Walmart has basically moved to a part time only format for most of its staff, so this comes off more as a tantrum than anything else. Their business practices have devastated local economies and smaller competitors. This hit would be a drop in the bucket for them. With the rate of inflation, the current federal minimum wage is just not enough to live on.
 
They still meet the billion dollar revenue requirement, so no dice. This law did everything but specifically mention Wal-Mart, and the only way they can avoid it is not have stores in DC.
From the article, and the bold is mine...
The district's bill applies to stores of 75,000 square feet or larger and annual corporate revenues of at least $1 billion.
To me that says that both criteria have to be met.
 
While I'm all in favor of raising minimum wage to something you can live off, I don't see how it can be in any way fair or open to raise it just for specific stores. What's next - a special tax, only levied on Windows, but if you use Linux or Apple you're exempt?
 
While I'm all in favor of raising minimum wage to something you can live off, I don't see how it can be in any way fair or open to raise it just for specific stores. What's next - a special tax, only levied on Windows, but if you use Linux or Apple you're exempt?
Well, people already pay a premium for the Apple tax.
 
From the article:


The logic was that the "big-box" stores can afford it. And because they can afford it, they should be forced to pay it.
Unless they're union, because money flows the right way to politicians from them.
 
The article fails to explain why they wouldn't raise the minimum wage across the board. It sounds like they are targeting big non-union business unfairly, which would result in a court case and probably millions of dollars the government would have to spend defending itself.
To not hurt smaller businesses? I don't agree at all that it is to just target Republican doners. Remember, Costco would also be affected and they have a strong pro-worker stance.[DOUBLEPOST=1373999396][/DOUBLEPOST]
Unless they're union, because money flows the right way to politicians from them.
What union? Union membership is down ever since 'right to work' has been implemented in a number of states.
 
To not hurt smaller businesses?
But the point of minimum wage is to help the workers. So are we right to be telling workers, "you aren't worth as much when you work for a small business as a big business"?

I guess what I'm trying to understand here, is why minimum wage - which is tightly coupled to worker's rights - is something they are considering coupling to aspects of the business.

Even though restaurants with tipping are under a different minimum wage category, if the tips don't at least meet minimum wage then the restaurant has to pay the difference, so even in this one situation the minimum wage is the same.

Aren't we opening a can of worms and a possible bundle of loopholes once we start stratifying minimum wage based on business rather than simply taking into account the workers?[DOUBLEPOST=1373999808][/DOUBLEPOST]
What union? Union membership is down ever since 'right to work' has been implemented in a number of states.
11.3% of all workers are in a union, and it's only dropped 0.4% from 2011 to 2012. It's still a significant portion of the US workforce, but you're right - it'll never get back to 1980's levels, which hovered around 20%.

But that's more an issue with our economy shifting away from manufacturing than right to work laws.[DOUBLEPOST=1373999969][/DOUBLEPOST]http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm <-- Where I got my numbers from
 
But the point of minimum wage is to help the workers. So are we right to be telling workers, "you aren't worth as much when you work for a small business as a big business"?

I guess what I'm trying to understand here, is why minimum wage - which is tightly coupled to worker's rights - is something they are considering coupling to aspects of the business.

Even though restaurants with tipping are under a different minimum wage category, if the tips don't at least meet minimum wage then the restaurant has to pay the difference, so even in this one situation the minimum wage is the same.

Aren't we opening a can of worms and a possible bundle of loopholes once we start stratifying minimum wage based on business rather than simply taking into account the workers?
I don't think that's it at all. I think what they are trying to do is create a replacement for factory work since our industry has turned so heavily to service. Extraordinarily profitable businesses might be a good place to create the new middle class, and perhaps these larger businesses will be a boon to our economy and even the service industry at large.

Is it a perfect solution? No, probably not. I understand why they would want to create a better paying industry through extremely profitable corporations rather than make across the board minimum wage hikes which hurt the real small businesses (the small coffee shop, the local book store, etc).
 
create a replacement for factory work
That may be a good short term solution, but I don't want any children now growing up believing that they should be able to earn a full, adult living wage from flipping burgers, pushing carts, or stocking shelves.
 
That may be a good short term solution, but I don't want any children now growing up believing that they should be able to earn a full, adult living wage from flipping burgers, pushing carts, or stocking shelves.
Nobody wants kids to be forced to live a life like this but the days of a good life-long job for everyone is pretty much over.
 
Nobody wants kids to be forced to live a life like this but the days of a good life-long job for everyone is pretty much over.
I'm not talking about their quality of life working a crummy job. I'm talking about how bad our economy would go if suddenly the person behind the counter taking your order cost the restaurant 5 times as much as they do now.

Raising the cost of the service sector that significantly (ie, from minimum wage to living wage) would be disastrous.
 
But hey, I want everything automated by robots anyway. If they raise minimum wage then it will only encourage the bigger stores to automate things more, eliminating the low paying jobs altogether, which would still force people either onto welfare, or back into education so they can perform more productive work.
 
I'm not talking about their quality of life working a crummy job. I'm talking about how bad our economy would go if suddenly the person behind the counter taking your order cost the restaurant 5 times as much as they do now.

Raising the cost of the service sector that significantly (ie, from minimum wage to living wage) would be disastrous.
Which is why, I would guess, the legislation targets companies that already make an obscene amount of money in profits?
 
Which is why, I would guess, the legislation targets companies that already make an obscene amount of money in profits?
Do they? By percentage I mean. This goes into a political flunkie I had knock on my door about 2 years ago. He was campaigning to get signatures for a petition to take profits away from big Canadian banks, because many of them had profits of over $1B in the previous year, and it was in the news. So I asked him: how much revenue is that on? If it's on $20B revenue, that's only a return of 5%. Is that OK? Or is anything over 10% not OK? Or what? Basically I got him into a big fluster over how he couldn't tell me if a rate of return was "just" or not. I also asked him if a small business owner making a profit of $60,000 on $120,000 revenue was OK? It's a much higher percentage, though he probably worked his or her ass off to get it. But it's 50% profit, so should that be garnished, or otherwise focused on? If he could only make 5% profit (and give the rest to government to redistribute "fairly" as he was advocating the bank's money to do) then even on same revenue, he'd take home $6,000, which obviously you can't live on. This "activist" left really really angry (said I was excusing the banks and how they don't "need" the "obscene" profits, who btw never had a housing crash up here) because he was focusing on a number, not on a percentage, and even if you focus on a percentage, it still can be grossly wrong to tax one or the other differently.

So if you say Walmart has bad business practices, treats their workers badly, or anything else, then that may be true, and should be addressed. But making too much money via selling stuff? Umm, since when was that unjust? It isn't even like the media companies who are selling literally nothing. This is at least real material goods!
 
It's almost like they are taxing Wal-Mart and giving a portion of it to their employees, except that this "tax" is happening pre-tax.

--Patrick
 
So if you say Walmart has bad business practices, treats their workers badly, or anything else, then that may be true, and should be addressed. But making too much money via selling stuff? Umm, since when was that unjust? It isn't even like the media companies who are selling literally nothing. This is at least real material goods!
I believe I did say it wasn't a perfect solution. I can't imagine anyone saying the people who work Wal-Mart shifts are overpaid, but if the companies were allowed to pay their workers less they would. And it would probably save you a penny or two on each purchase. More than likely, though, it would just be used to increase their profit.

And if you don't think billions of dollars in PROFIT is obscene, you've been fucking brainwashed.
 
When the family who owns the company has more wealth than the bottom 40% of America? Oh, that is up by 10% since 2007.

Yes, things are unbalanced. But that appeals to the nebulous notion of "fairness". What I asked for is a definition of obscene. Is it $1B/year in profits?

Also, the problem with this sort of logic is that it assumes that these business will be willing to take a hit in profits to comply with the law, which has been shown in the past to be expressly NOT true (especially with the mandate that a business must first look to the interest of its shareholders). Pass a law like this, and Wal-Mart will undoubtedly comply, but there will inevitably be a trade-off. Either prices will go up (which hurts everyone in a low-income situation, not just those who work for Wal-Mart), or the company will restructure so that they fit under the minimum requirements of the law (as mentioned above).

Every decision made at the corporate level is intended to maximize profits. It may be cynical, but I guarantee that every company that has excellent wages and benefits for their workers has decided to do so because (a) their business model permits it, and (b) it will improve their reputation enough that their increased profits will compensate for the increased expenses.
 
When the family who owns the company has more wealth than the bottom 40% of America? Oh, that is up by 10% since 2007.
That's due to the stock market, not due to the company's profits.If the company fails they'll still be wealthy, but not nearly as much as you seem to be worried about. The reality is that this money simply doesn't exist, except in the hearts and minds of the stockholders. Should the stock tumble, so does their wealth. By keeping their stock in the company they ensure that each of them will work in the company's best interests.

Further, you don't seem to be understanding what everyone else is saying about profit margin. Walmart has about a 4% margin after its fixed costs. ( http://ycharts.com/companies/WMT/profit_margin ) 4% is NOT enough to run a business unless you do so in huge volume. Even 20% margin is a very small margin.

Walmart's whole business model is sell lots of cheap stuff at a low margin.

Here are a few key numbers and bits of info:
Walmart is publicly traded. The family no longer gets all the profit, and in fact they simply feed the profit (after stock dividends) back into Walmart's growth. They hold stock, this is where their wealth lies, they don't actually get million dollar salaries, nevermind billion dollar salaries.
They have 2.2 million employees.
They made 25 billion in 2011.

That may seem like a lot, but when you consider the margin, and the numbers above, you realize their biggest cost is the employees. If they raise the minimum wage by $4, as proposed, then they're losing 1/3rd of their existing profit margin. What happens then is up to the stock market, but the most likely occurrence is that the stock crashes because their business model no longer works.

You can't run a company even as big as walmart off a profit margin of only 2.6%.

Of course, that's speaking in terms of making all of walmart follow the hiked minimum wage. In terms of DC, as I said earlier, they'll simply lawyer their way out of it and the law will only have effect on those businesses that Walmart competes with but can't afford to lawyer their way out. Most likely by forming a new company with a different name that is everything you hate about walmart but packaged so as to avoid the wage increase.

Any business in the same category is going to have the same trouble with the law. They got big because they reduced prices for consumers and made it up in volume. If you force them to increase their prices, the consumers ultimately lose, whether the companies remain in business or not.
 
And if you don't think billions of dollars in PROFIT is obscene, you've been fucking brainwashed.
I addressed that Krisken: when they're doing such immense volumes, that's the only way that you can stay in business with a LOW margin. Read Stienman's post, and tell me how they are supposed to cut it much thinner than they are?

Or better yet, wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walmart
(2013 numbers, which would be public, as it's a public company)
# of Employees: 2,200,000
Revenue: $469,162,000,000
Net Income: $16,999,000,000 (after taxes and such)

If you took 100% of profits and gave it equally to every employee:: 16,999,000,000 / 2,200,000 = $7726.82 per year. Something tells me that number is not a 50% wage increase. And that's with ZERO profits at that point.

When you're dealing with massive numbers of employees, with massive revenues, even if the profits LOOK massive, they are actually quite reasonable. You can't increase the amount that the original article does and still be profitable.
 
You can't increase the amount that the original article does and still be profitable.
And there are those who believe that's the ideal situation anyway. Tax anyone out of business who they don't like, and make consumers pay 50% to 200% more for goods and services that everyone buys.
 
An economist friend of mine said something about the "Wal-Mart effect" on the economy that I think applies here:

"You can have high wages or you can have low-cost goods, but you can't have both."
 
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