There's no "I" in... faith?

Well there is, but only because it's spelled that way.

I happened to wander into the break room at work when a video version of this article was on. The gist I got from it was "faith is not all about you." It also reminded me of this...


And that's why the Kim Davises of the world will eventually fail. Because no matter how much she brags about her faith, in the end it's all about her. She doesn't love. Never had. Her supporters aren't more faithful, just louder. the "more annoying version of them" like the article said. :)

I'll admit, I'm not a churchgoer. A lot of it is because on a Sunday morning such as this, I'm just coming off of an 8-hour shift and would rather unwind on the couch with a record or on the computer smashing the Iron Horde instead of getting dressed up and heading out to a church where I hardly know anyone anymore. And maybe part of it is an overall disgust with organized religion, where the notion of love only goes as far as "love those who are already like us."

Discuss. :)
 
I'm a godless heathen, so take that into account with my next opinions.

The core values and teachings of most religions usually boils down to "don't be a dick.". This is a perfectly fine message. The trouble happens when people instead choose to interpret that into " justify myself for being a dick. "
 
You misspelled his name. @stienman

It's Sunday, and Steiny's Mormon. You ain't getting a response today. :p


Kinda off topic, but my best friend growing up was Mormon and that foo had to be in church practically all day on Sundays (like 4-5 hours), later it was "family time" for the rest of the day.
 
Some guy wrote a whole book where the first sentence was, "It's not about you."

Can't quite remember who, though. It's been a while. Might have been a purpose to it.
 

Cajungal

Staff member
I'm having a hard time equating an "I'm going to be be a better person and improve my relationship with god" attitude as "we are better than you." Or at least, that's not why I hate religion.

What's obnoxious isn't people trying to become the best version of themselves (which, depending on your values, could be great for everyone). What's obnoxious is the recruitment mentality itself.
 
There is definitely a "we're better than you" mentality for some folks, though. I agree that there's nothing wrong with trying to better yourself, but some people approach it from a comparison angle instead. It's "I must act better than them" rather than " I must act better than I have been". But I fully agree it's not every Christian who does this.
 

Cajungal

Staff member
I've definitely seen/known that type as well. Sometimes it presents more like pity. "Poor things don't see the truth. I'll pray for them."
 
I have long maintained that you don't really become SOMEbody until you surrender to something that you believe greater than yourself. This is often religion, but it could also be football, your company, your family/kids, Pokémon, art/music, whatever.

--Patrick
 
Well there is, but only because it's spelled that way.

I happened to wander into the break room at work when a video version of this article was on. The gist I got from it was "faith is not all about you."
There's a lot going on in that article, but yes, I agree with the idea that Christ requires His followers to serve others. In the LDS church the related scripture is Mosiah 2:17, "...when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God." If you love God, then you also love God's children, ie, your fellow humans, and when you serve them, you are serving God. Can you truly claim to love God if you turn inward and refuse to share what He has given you with others, particularly your time? When you join the LDS church through baptism you covenant "to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light ... to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort" (Mosiah 18:8-9)

The article's main point, though, seems to be the idea that people are rejecting religion because the religious people aren't behaving well. I'm not sure that's true. I suspect the growth of atheism and agnosticism isn't because the religious are pushing people away (although, of course, this is happening as well) but because people don't find a purpose to believing. You express both aspects, being pushed away as well as not finding purpose in it, pretty succinctly:

I ... would rather unwind on the couch with a record or on the computer smashing the Iron Horde instead of getting dressed up and heading out to a church where I hardly know anyone anymore. And maybe part of it is an overall disgust with organized religion, where the notion of love only goes as far as "love those who are already like us."
So the bigger question for most people is, "Why go to church? What will I get out of it that's better than the dozen other things I could do with my time and other resources?"

But if you do attend, you'll often find that as you come closer to God, you desire more to serve the rest of humanity, which only requires more time and resources.

If anything, religion should make you look further inwards to change yourself, and further outwards to serve other people.

Kinda off topic, but my best friend growing up was Mormon and that foo had to be in church practically all day on Sundays (like 4-5 hours), later it was "family time" for the rest of the day.
Close. Many decades ago you'd have Sacrament meeting (a little over an hour), then Sunday School (which could occur on Sunday or during the week) and then another meeting for the Priesthood (men) and Relief Society (women). Different congregations had different schedules, but typically most would attend all three meetings. Going back and forth to church seemed inefficient outside of Utah (where you could walk to church, there are so many of them) and so they decided to combine everything into a single 3 hour block. You aren't required to attend all of them, but most do. Some choose to attend Sacrament meeting only, so their church attendance is only an hour and fifteen minutes a week. There is usually another 90 minutes of activities during the week primarily for youth. Scouting, youth activities, etc happen then.

The LDS church is largely lead by a lay ministry - our congregations each have a Bishop and various leaders for each congregation, and there are 5-8 congregations per "Stake" with a Stake President and various leaders, and many Stakes in an Area. None of the leadership from the Stake on down are paid, and most (if not all?) of the area level leadership are also unpaid.

That said, the calling I had which took the most time was as the Bishop's Executive Secretary. Mostly I attended all of his leadership meetings and coordinated his schedule, and that would often require me to be at the church on Sundays from 7am to 4pm, and 3 hours one other night weekly.

Interestingly, we always had a hard time getting our large family to church on time, but once I was at church early, leaving my wife to get everyone out the door, she got them there on time without me...

My calling in the church right now is in the cub scouts, so including the 3 hour meeting on Sunday, and a few hours a month doing pack meetings and individual visits with other members, I'm spending 4 hours a week on average doing church stuff. We we do encourage our family to spend the time together and treat Sundays as different than other days of the week, though. There's so many other extracurricular activities they can and do become involved in during the week that we feel it's important to set aside time to reconnect, play games or watch movies together, so our kids don't feel disconnected from the family.

not everyChristian
You forgot the hashtag ;).

Recruitment is an interesting thing. I prefer the, "Hey, here's some thoughts that apply to the situation you're discussing with me from a religious perspective. Let me know if you'd like to discuss this more," rather than, "You're a bad person if you don't believe this," or "I pity you", or "I'm better than you, but you can improve" methods.

I think, however, that this is a reflection of the individual, rather than the collective. Certainly, one group or another may use a particular technique generally, but if you look towards the leadership you'll find that this is the technique they have taught.

You see this in other areas, though. If someone goes through school after their older sibling they're almost certainly going to be compared because there's always going to be something they are worse at than their sibling.

Some parents use this technique to motivate their children. I do not prefer it, but I'm going to stop short of calling it a bad parenting technique because it's so ingrained into some cultures as the best way. Telling your child that they need to improve or they'll be left behind by their peers, or telling them their work is terrible, then showing them another child's work and saying they need to be more like this other child. This sort of environment is not uncommon, and can easily lead those children to grow up and become adults that attempt to motivate others through comparison. "Our company needs to step up its game, because company X is winning," for instance. I'm sure most people run into adults that have this worldview or perspective.

Its use inside religion may be effective for some, but it seems to me that it doesn't exude love, care, and concern. A knowledge of and respect for inherent individual worth seems lacking in such an approach.[DOUBLEPOST=1453139872,1453139754][/DOUBLEPOST]
I have long maintained that you don't really become SOMEbody until you surrender to something that you believe greater than yourself. This is often religion, but it could also be football, your company, your family/kids, Pokémon, art/music, whatever.

--Patrick
That's an interesting thought I'm going to ponder further. It certainly describes the transition from self-seeking and self-satisfaction and a turning of the only thing you truly own - your time and what you do with it - towards the good of others/society.
 
That's an interesting thought I'm going to ponder further. It certainly describes the transition from self-seeking and self-satisfaction and a turning of the only thing you truly own - your time and what you do with it - towards the good of others/society.
While you are pondering, I'm going to throw in that I didn't explicitly state that doing so was necessarily a good thing, just that it is my opinion that a person does not truly become Great until he has voluntarily devoted himself (I used the term "surrender" deliberately) to something other than himself...except in the case where the thing he has devoted himself to is self-promotion, itself, which could be a meta-brain-hurter, and could also explain why that particular subset seems to care so little about others.

--Patrick
 
Last edited:
"We look at this Son and see God’s original purpose in everything created. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels—everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him." - Colossians 1:16-18, MSG
 
I know what I dislike about organized religion in the western world, because I am guilty of most of the above "sins". I am ashamed of some of my actions, thoughts, and proclamations during those years. However, there was a lot of good that came out of those years too.

I am quite uncertain on how to deal with religion and my kiddos.
 
I am quite uncertain on how to deal with religion and my kiddos.
I think about this a lot too.

I have my son going to a church preschool, but we keep him out of most services, which the church is fine with. It's difficult to balance because I want him to understand the good that comes from faith, but I don't want him engulfed in doctrine. I want him to make his own choices about what he believes when he gets older.
 
A

Anonymous

Anonymous

I teach at a school with a wide range of faiths. It's mostly Christian, but there are a lot of different churches. Some are more rigid, while others are extremely open and laid-back. But our kids grow up knowing Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Agnostics, and Atheists.

I can say that being too far in either direction can be damaging for a kid. I taught a girl who mocked kids who went to church. When they asked why she felt that way, she simply said, "My parents believe in evolution!" She'd distilled her parents' rants to that statement and the ridiculous notion that you cannot be faithful and also agree with scientific theories. It's just a different type of parrot. The other extreme is also disturbing--the kids who cry because their Muslim and Jewish friends will not go to heaven.

Most kids are fine with what our chaplain has taught, which is "God is everywhere, and he looks different within different cultures. We can help each other understand God by teaching each other what we know." They come to know that the surface stuff is different, but generally, we all agree that we should treat others how we want to be treated. They're too young for us to go much farther than that. As much as I like being disconnected from religion now, I see what good that foundation can do for a child when it's very moderate. It's just like people gathering around the campfire and hearing stories from the elder. They're learning to connect their lives and mistakes with the people in stories.
 
I really strongly dislike organized religion, BUT I would never say bad things about the people who choose to follow one, especially in front of my daughter, who has plenty of friends who do things like attend church and church related events.
 
I'm a believer, but I try to behave along the lines of what CS Lewis describes here:

"There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations--these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit--immortal horrors or everlasting splendours. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of the kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously--no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption."

Make an effort to treat everyone seriously and don't act like anyone's position or feelings are less important just because I don't necessarily agree.
 
I'm having a hard time equating an "I'm going to be be a better person and improve my relationship with god" attitude as "we are better than you." Or at least, that's not why I hate religion.

What's obnoxious isn't people trying to become the best version of themselves (which, depending on your values, could be great for everyone). What's obnoxious is the recruitment mentality itself.
I totally get that people can be super judgmental and superior in their recruitment mentality, but if you can imagine it from their perspective: Say you just discovered way to live happily ever after forever. Of course you want to share that with everyone you can. Butthe concept itself sounds like a bad infomercial and most people wish they had a tenth of the charisma of a good salesperson, so they come across as pushy and judgmental.

As for me, I just try to live as I should based on my worldview. I'm regularly lousy at it because believing something about how one should live doesn't mean I instantly do everything perfect. But if someone who interacts with me likes my attitude and behavior and asks why I am the way I am, I'd be happy to share.
 
I totally get that people can be super judgmental and superior in their recruitment mentality, but if you can imagine it from their perspective: Say you just discovered way to live happily ever after forever. Of course you want to share that with everyone you can. Butthe concept itself sounds like a bad infomercial and most people wish they had a tenth of the charisma of a good salesperson, so they come across as pushy and judgmental.
When it comes to life choices, just attempting to bring them into your world view means you on some level judging them. You deemed your way of life superior to however they were living. It does not matter if it's religion, fitness, nutrition, etc. I know that the health nut telling me I need to cut down on gluten is just trying to help me, from his perspective, but he is still judging how I eat / chug down delicious soy sauce, otherwise he never would have brought it up in the first place.

Honestly, I think religion wouldn't be such a powder keg to talk about if it didn't carry such a huge road block to discussion, I am talking about the Afterlife. You could be having the best discussion in the world about the nature of religion, but soon or later the discussion will turn to the Afterlife, and unless you are talking with an atheist there is no real way to segway into something from there, because most major religions only believe they are going to Heaven, and all those outside are going to limbo and / or Hell, and let's be honest, NO ONE likes to be even implied as the one going to Hell for following their own faith.
 
I'm a believer, but I try to behave along the lines of what CS Lewis describes here:

"There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations--these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit--immortal horrors or everlasting splendours. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of the kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously--no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption."

Make an effort to treat everyone seriously and don't act like anyone's position or feelings are less important just because I don't necessarily agree.
I originally read this as being attributed to Louis CK, and was thinking "Man, this is much more flowery than his usual shtick."
 
Top