Star Wars Ep. VII has a name...
- Thread starter @Li3n
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GasBandit
Staff member
Yes, but I wasn't talking about the show, I was talking about the fans.
You ever go to a star trek con?
Nope. They hate Gene as much as Star Wars fans hate Lucas?
GasBandit
Staff member
Not specifically - Roddenberry died during TNG, after all. But you'll not find a wierder, more unsettling sci-fi fandom of such caliber. It's hard to describe to someone who hasn't witnessed it.
It's hard to hate a starry eyed idealist, especially considering he's been dead for 20+ years. But the fandom is divided on seasons before and after his death: some think that the idealism in TNG and classic is truer to Gene's vision and thus more worthy of consideration, while others think the darkness in Voyager, Enterprise, and especially DS9 feels a bit closer to how things would actually play out. It honestly boils down to if you think Gene was right that science and technology could redeem mankind or that it would simply make it easier to oppress and control.
About the only thing Trekkies CAN agree on is that your life gets markedly shittier that farther from Earth you get.
I agree with the dark camp. Idealistic crap is boring.
I think DS9 works because it has both it's idealist and realist moments. Sisko is the man for the job out there because he's pragmatic enough to get things done, but also because he has moments of doubt if he's doing the right thing. Worf is basically the only Klingon of note that actually believes in the virtue of Empire... but it's only because he wasn't born and raised in it, so he's not jaded by it's politics. O'Brien can't sleep at night because of the shit he did during the Cardassian War, but he's also the most well meaning character on the station. Even Quark has his limits when it comes to his pursuit of profit because he knows latinum is worthless if you can't live with what you did to get it.
Honestly, it's probably the best series.
"At oh-eight-hundred hours, station time... the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They've already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border. So, this is a huge victory for the good guys! This may even be the turning point of the entire war! There's even a "Welcome to the Fight" party tonight in the wardroom!... So... I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover up the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But most damning of all... I think I can live with it... And if I had to do it all over again... I would. Garak was right about one thing – a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it...Because I can live with it...I can live with it. Computer – erase that entire personal log."
The only reason that line works is because he has to affirm it to himself. Twice. He did wrong... and while he's not okay with the fact that he couldn't live up to his own standards, he'll suffer through it because worse things would happen if he didn't.
Fuck man... I need to read the new novels.
Fuck man... I need to read the new novels.
figmentPez
Staff member
I'm torn on the claymore saber. On one hand, I like the idea of a bigger "heavier" lightsaber, and a different style of combat. On the other hand, a claymore doesn't have blades as it's hilt. The concept of a guard there could have been done in a different fashion, and it would have appealed to me without reservation.
I get the feeling that the crossguard on that lightsaber is meant to be used in an offensive manner, instead of protecting the wielder's hand like a traditional crossguard. For example, imagine if the user locks blades with an opponent. The smaller blades near the hilt can be maneuvered to strike the opponent's torso.
I also feel like pointing out that the blade is red, and thus the wielder is likely a Sith, or at least a dark side Force user. And dark siders have a tradition of favoring innovative lightsaber designs (the double-bladed lightsaber wielded by Darth Maul and Exar Kun, Darth Vader's dual-phase lightsaber, Luminya's lightwhip, Count Dooku's curved hilt lightsaber, and a whole bunch of others). In contrast to the straight-and-narrow philosophy of the Jedi, the Sith are willing to embrace power wherever it may be found.
I also feel like pointing out that the blade is red, and thus the wielder is likely a Sith, or at least a dark side Force user. And dark siders have a tradition of favoring innovative lightsaber designs (the double-bladed lightsaber wielded by Darth Maul and Exar Kun, Darth Vader's dual-phase lightsaber, Luminya's lightwhip, Count Dooku's curved hilt lightsaber, and a whole bunch of others). In contrast to the straight-and-narrow philosophy of the Jedi, the Sith are willing to embrace power wherever it may be found.
I recently rewatched all of TNG, remembered why I loved it, and rewatched all of DS9. Just finished the last episode this evening. Now I remember why I loved DS9 more.
Comparing the two, it's like getting on one of those pirate ship rides at an amusement park. You get your thrills and scream a little when you're hanging upside down. It's all good fun. Then you get on a real pirate ship, the ride attendants all turn into grizzled men with beards and an assortment of missing limbs and you find yourself choking on a pipe full of tobacco.
A regular claymore isn't made of plasma though. The reason a claymore does not have blades on the guard is because metal in general will stop any sword strike, regardless how sharp it is. When it comes to plasma though, what use is a guard if the blade itself slices through it like a knife through butter?
The only consistent thing shown to block or deflect lightsaber energy is other lightsabers, thus it makes sense the crossguard itself would be composed of that energy.
figmentPez
Staff member
First off, look at the hilt, at the cross of the blade and the hilt is not an intersection of containment field filled with plasma, but a fair amount of hilt material. Any blade sliding down to the hilt will be hitting metal, not saber.
Second, there are other things that consistently block lightsaber energy. Most notably an Electrostaff, which were built for fighting Jedi.
Third, it's fiction. How do you kill a vampire? However the author wants. How do you build a hilt that can block a lightsaber, but isn't a lightsaber? Whatever the author wants to invent. This is a chance for a new thing, a chance for a fun new addition to canon. Rather than just throw more blades on it, you could have a cool new glowing effect of some energy field that blocks lightsabers. A chance for the audience to go "wow, I know that's a lightsaber, but what on earth is going on with the cross-guard?", rather than "three blades, really?" Hell, make it a sword-breaking hilt while you're at it. Why just block a blow when you could snap off your opponents blade (or, in this case, short circuit the weapon somehow)? Lots of wasted potential there, going with just more blades, if you ask me.
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I'll say it again: it looks cool > function.
but...
As for the use as a guard being used defensively, it's possible that the metal nubs as part of the guard are merely there to protect the wielder of the saber. The plasma could be split three ways by a crystal or some shit at the end of the hilt. So if a light saber did slide down to the guard, the metal nubs would get damaged but the plasma underneath would still function to block it.
Personally I like the theory that it's an ancient light saber because of the crude looking blade, and the hilt guards are exhaust ports of somekind.
but...
As for the use as a guard being used defensively, it's possible that the metal nubs as part of the guard are merely there to protect the wielder of the saber. The plasma could be split three ways by a crystal or some shit at the end of the hilt. So if a light saber did slide down to the guard, the metal nubs would get damaged but the plasma underneath would still function to block it.
Personally I like the theory that it's an ancient light saber because of the crude looking blade, and the hilt guards are exhaust ports of somekind.
figmentPez
Staff member
Personally, I don't think it looks cool. The idea of a different style of combat is cool, but the trailer didn't show any of that. It just showed moar bladezz, which I'm not impressed by. It's not bad, or stupid, it's just bland to me. Especially when it could have been so much more.
When has an Electrostaff been shown in the movies to actually fully block a lightsaber? Even the one Obi-Wan used in the Clone Wars cartoon was cut into pieces by General Grievous' Lightsaber, so it can't be that resistant. The metal parts on the cross guard don't prevent the plasma underneath from defending, since it's likely still plasma coming out of the main hilt, just being redirected. That might even be why it's slightly flickering, since it's straining a bit more to hold the blade and both guard points.
I didn't say the design was a good idea, I just wanted to explain why the design likely happened. In the movies the only thing that has ever been shown to consistently block a Lightsaber has been another Lightsaber. We have never seen any other supposed "resistant" material hold up to such scrutiny outside of maybe the EU, which Disney said was dropped in favor of their own continuation. Yes they could have just made up something, but then SW nerds would still argue about it.
GasBandit
Staff member
Lucas has said before that EU/books/videogames/TV shows aren't canon... so that kinda torpedoes all the points about mandalorian iron/cortosis weave/etc. That said, there have been times in the movies that lightsabers haven't cut through something - rather they just really badly scorched the outside. The things in quesion - various walls and floors they contacted.
For example, observe this part of episode 3, where Grievous' spinning light sabers score the hell out of the floor but aren't actually cutting it.
But then that begs the question - if the crossguard emitters are made out of some mystery substance that blocks lightsaber blades, why even have plasma emitters at all?
I'm more prone to chalk this one up to the same "my kids thought this would be cool" motivation/process that brought us so much of the hurting in episode 1.
For example, observe this part of episode 3, where Grievous' spinning light sabers score the hell out of the floor but aren't actually cutting it.
But then that begs the question - if the crossguard emitters are made out of some mystery substance that blocks lightsaber blades, why even have plasma emitters at all?
I'm more prone to chalk this one up to the same "my kids thought this would be cool" motivation/process that brought us so much of the hurting in episode 1.
That has always been the case though. It would be impractical to have the lightsaber cut into walls and floors unless it was plot relevant. Even the original trilogy you had points where they are fighting it out, get close to a wall, and instead of cutting anything on the wall, sparks just fly all over the place.
When it's plot relevant though, they can, like in Episode 1 when they use the lightsabers to cut and melt through the blast doors.[DOUBLEPOST=1417446561,1417446244][/DOUBLEPOST]
It does make you wonder though. The Electrostaff seems to have a current of some sort of energy running through it from one side to the other and that electricity seems to flare up when in contact with the lightsaber. Is the metal itself actually stopping the attacks, or some sort of energy shielding?
GasBandit
Staff member
The explanation I've read for why lightsabers block lightsabers is because it's the plasma arc of one lightsaber contacting the other saber's containment shield (which is also why lightsabers reflect energy weapon bolts). Perhaps the electrostaff uses a similar force field to confine the range of the discharge.
If that is the case, then it does make it a bit more silly, since why can't you just apply a containment shield over another object on the hilt? Maybe it's designed only to apply over plasma?
GasBandit
Staff member
I said something to that effect, over in the other thread.
The answer is, "because it looks cool," I'm sure.
90% of star wars shit is just shit that looks cool and has an after-the-fact rationalization for why it has to do that.
Hell, neither Lucasfilm nor the fanbase can make up their minds about whether the sides of TIE fighters are solar panels or heat radiators.
ITT: Some people take things way too seriously 
GasBandit
Staff member
I mean, heck, we're talking about a series that applies atmospheric flight paradigms to vacuum. All the ships only have great big thrusters on the back, but to maneuver the way they do, they'd need equally large thrusters pointing in all directions. And it also invokes the holiest of old soft sci-fi tropes, the "constant thrust=constant speed" spaceflight fallacy. But I'm sure there's some paper-thin-plausible imaginary magitek device that keeps the ships moving the direction they point, and slow down when you kill the engines.
figmentPez
Staff member
That's one of the sequences I was thinking of. There are also sequences in the Clone Wars animated series. Although I didn't realize those weren't canon, I don't care. The idea exists and is out there, to be used by writers.
Which leads me back to my point: This is a chance to do something new, and leave audiences wondering. Come up with a shiny effect to extend out at the hilt, something that's not a lightsaber blade. Show that in the trailer and you've presented a mystery for fans to speculate about; a reason to come see the film. As it is, we just got more of the same. While that works, because die-hard fans will always want more of the same, I think it could have been more.
To me it doesn't matter if you can justify some in-canon reason for the hilt-blades. I don't think it's a cool image, in and of itself (though it could lead to some fun fight choreography), and I think so much more could have been done with the concept of a cross-guard on a lightsaber.
Anything considered in the EU isn't canon. I don't know if they ever mentioned the TV shows, but I wouldn't be surprised if they at least made Clone Wars a canon series. The new one, Rebels, is supposed to be canon, and people are pretty sure one of the characters from that show is appearing in the movie. (It's rumored the black stormtrooper shown near the beginning is Zare Leonis from the recent episode Breaking Rank)
From what I understand the Clone Wars show and movie (CGI, not Genndy), and now Rebels, are canon. EU stuff like books/games/etc aren't.
Also, I still think Grievous was a huge fucking waste in most of his fights. A Sith with four Goddamned arms that used the sabers of Jedi he'd killed and 90% of the time he plays helicopter or runs away like a giant baby. I'm amazed he even had any Jedi sabers to begin with. To me Grievous is the epitome of stupid lightsaber stuff.
It's sad, because the animated clone wars series (Not the CGI one) made him an utter badass. Then they just had Mace Windu crush his frame at the end, which was supposed to be what weakened him and made him the coughing troll that appeared in the movie.
The official stance on continuity is that everything is canon unless the movies contradict it. Disney only changed it to include the new TV show as well.
I can not stand all the supposed internet anger over a black storm trooper. Most likely he is doing the steal the perfectly fitting uniform from a dead trooper motif.