[Other] Site of the Site

[Dave]

Okay, so every once in a while I get a wild hair and check out what's happening on the site. It contains lots of statistics and stuff like that and I use it to try and come up with some sort of ideas.

The headline here is...Halforums is floundering. Our site visits are down 44.34%. Unique user visits are down 62.04%.

Here's a list of problems we've had:

• No direction. We have a history, but that history is the only thing holding us together. We're bringing in no new people.
• No new people. First, people have no reason to come here. Second, when new people do come here we chase them away.
• Moderation. We put in place some moderation and for the most part we've been very consistent at it. Yes, we've had some miscues, but we have tried. Some have said that the moderation is at fault because the place feels somehow constrictive and they are not as free to talk. Some have really liked the moderation rules.

So what do we do? We've tried to partner with some people before, but whether through my own inaction or other outside influences, we've been unable to capitalize on these partnerships. I'll admit I've probably been too narrow-focused with webcomics, but I figured that since that's where we came from it would be a natural fit. Supervillainous is doing great, but they get posted on another site so we couldn't use that.

So here's me, asking you for your views. We can't keep going the way we are and remain viable. And if the last few days has taught me anything, it's that this group needs to stay together. I can't imagine losing touch with you guys and you helped me through a tough time with my dad.

So hit me with your ideas!

 

[AshburnerX]

I really don't see much of a way to bring in new people. We're all doing word of mouth, but without a big content creator or something else to bring people in, we're just going to be a general purpose forum. We need content, period.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Second, when new people do come here we chase them away.

I'm gonna argue that people have gotten better about this.

We're not going to spontaneously be the forum of something besides ourselves. That's not how forum creation works. Usually there's a thing, and then people want to discuss that thing, hence a forum. You'd really need to latch onto something pre-existing. The trouble there is that there isn't one big thing we all talk about, same reason we were cut loose years back.

If it's about keeping this group together, the only thing I could think of would be a mass forum move to the forum of something that already exists. We wouldn't have control, but we'd be together. I doubt anyone wants to do--we've been here a while, we have control after all, and on some level there's a comradery people want to maintain that unfortunately is part of the reason it seems unwelcoming to newcomers even if no one here is antagonistic with them. Entering a new forum would mean lots of people who don't share our history--people can decide whether that'd be good or bad.

Another option is to re-gear the forum toward something popular that enough of us would discuss to be worthwhile. But I don't think we have anything like that and we'd still be competing with other discussion forums for that thing (Twilight, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Zelda, Halo, etc.).

 

[ThatNickGuy]

What I don't understand is that we've had new people appear sometimes. I've seen new people post on the Introduce Yourself thread, but then the don't appear again after that. Are we scaring those people away?

But I think the biggest problem is that the forum isn't really associated with anyone or anything. We're a forum, but forums are usually an extra on websites. We're like Giant in the Playground, but without a webcomic. The majority of us, of course, started with PvP. We're an offhshoot, but without anything of our own.

If I were a highly successful and famous writer, I'd totally use this place for my forums. But I'm not.

 

[Officer_Charon]

I come here because y'all are like family. When I feel like venting, or like when we had our miscarriages last year, y'all were here to help me get through that. Likewise, when anyone else is low, or as in the case of Mikko, when one has fallen, I'm more than happy to help bear the load, offer advice or help as I can.

This place is a community - it may be that some folks on the outside are intimidated at how insular we can seem - I know that I did at first, when I came here from the Angels 2200 forum, lo these many moons ago. Y'all had all had shared experiences from previous incarnations, or through PvP. I've STILL never read a PvP strip.

There's just enough openness here for someone who's determined enough to want to insinuate themselves into the group. But it might be off-putting to someone who's not feeling quite so confident.

As far as a forum "schtick" is concerned... I don't know. I'm not into a lot of the same things as folks here - sports etc don't fascinate me, games are merely an ancillary bonus to my day, rather than a focus, I don't read that many comics or watch many movies.

But y'all are still my home away from home, in the aether. Y'all are my Cheers. Wherever y'all go, whatever you do, I'll be there.

 

[Covar]

Y'all are my Cheers.

Eureka! that's it! We need beer.

 

[Cog]

I must say that sometimes you are a very intimidating group.

 

[Dave]

I must say that sometimes you are a very intimidating group.

Would you be willing to expand on this?

 

[drifter]

Tits out, Dave. Time to shake those moneymakers.

 

[Cog]

Would you be willing to expand on this?

I don't know how to explain it. Most posts I made here are in "stand alone" threads. Rants, epic win, etc, etc. But most of the time I feel like I'm (I don't know what word use in this case) trying to include myself in other people's conversation? You have inside jokes, famous forumites, and It's easy feel like an outsider.

 

[strawman]

I was considering this earlier today as I was winging my way on the thoroughfares of Detroit, and it occurred to me that we don't need to try to bring new people in. Those that join us via word of mouth, or the few things individual members do, become members of our family, and we don't need to focus on trying to grow our family.

I feel lost in forums with too many major characters. I'm sure that we are already big enough that new people have a hard time keeping track of us, but for me we're pretty much at our limit. (ask @PatrThom about Dunbar's number)

We grow too much beyond what we're already at and I suspect that we'll actually decrease our group's cohesiveness.

So I'd prefer to dig further down to the root of the problem, rather than looking at previous attempted and failed solutions.

We can't keep going the way we are and remain viable.

So this is the main issue. We are active enough that we require more than a $10/month server and an hour or two of work on the forum per month. As before, we can attempt to create and monetize content to generate the necessary revenue, but we'd need to get dozens of people to treat this like a part time job creating said content, and we'd have to hope that it would be enough. But most of us already have jobs, and aren't particularly interested in creating compelling content - as for me, it would take me hours a week of steady writing to create, for instance, a tech column that might - after a year, bring in a handful of advertising dollars a month. It would be a tenth or hundredth of what I make doing what I already do, and a poor use of my time.

I don't intend to say, "it isn't worth my time" - what I want you to understand is that this forum is worth my time, but I may be able to convert that time to money more efficiently than doing so directly on the forum itself. You've steadfastly refused to accept donations to run the forum except on the rare occasion, but trying to create content is the same thing, just less efficient (for most of us, anyway).

You've already shouldered the entire burden of the forum for so long because it was important to you, and because you knew it was important to us, even if we weren't yet aware of how important is was.

So while you can pursue any other method you believe is best, please take this post as a vote for discussing the actual base requirements of running the site, including both time and money resources, and in what ways "viable" is not being met. I have no doubt that we could manage the financial aspect of it, or the shortfall advertising doesn't cover at least, in the short run and in the long run.

Please don't let this continue to be a burden on you and your family. If you can continue to find the time, we can find the money.

 

[Frank]

I don't know how to explain it. Most posts I made here are in "stand alone" threads. Rants, epic win, etc, etc. But most of the time I feel like I'm (I don't know what word use in this case) trying to include myself in other people's conversation? You have inside jokes, famous forumites, and It's easy feel like an outsider.

I still feel this way generally.

 

[Dei]

Please don't let this continue to be a burden on you and your family. If you can continue to find the time, we can find the money.

This x100000

 

[Bubble181]

I don't think the financial side is the problem - if it is, I think Dave underestimates our willingness to donate to help out.
However, with the occasional "core member" leaving - no matter how - our growth may not be enough to keep it at a decent level. Too much smaller than we are now, and we might be in danger of fracturing - 5 people in Politics, 5 in Media, 5 in General - and become a combination hang-out for 5 groups of 5 friends. Which would completely stagnate and die out. Which would be an incredible shame.

 

[Hailey Knight]

I don't think the financial side is the problem - if it is, I think Dave underestimates our willingness to donate to help out.

It is a part of it; we can be costly.

As for fracturing, I'm pretty sure most of us comb through several of the sub-forums. I don't think we'd each hole up on our own little island.

 

[CrimsonSoul]

I don't know how to explain it. Most posts I made here are in "stand alone" threads. Rants, epic win, etc, etc. But most of the time I feel like I'm (I don't know what word use in this case) trying to include myself in other people's conversation? You have inside jokes, famous forumites, and It's easy feel like an outsider.

I agree

 

[Bubble181]

It is a part of it; we can be costly.

As for fracturing, I'm pretty sure most of us comb through several of the sub-forums. I don't think we'd each hole up on our own little island.

I don't mean "we're so cheap, what, can't you be bothered", I mean "I'm perfectly willing to donate my fair share and I'm sure there are plenty more like me".

And while there are many who *read* a lot of fora, the *posters* in some of them are fairly static. Because of interests. Yes, many people combine at least two - but I don't think anyone here is into sports, comics, storytelling, computers, games, politics, chitchat, cosplay, painting, books, self-help-advice-stuff, and NSFW content. I mean, I read all over the place because I have a passive intrest and almost all of those (sports not so much ). I don't know enough to usefully contribute to the conversation on most topics. Which is normal, and the case for many. But 1.000.000 lurkers do not a forum make.

 

[Dei]

It's really more that Dave doesn't like letting us help no matter how much we pressure him to let us.

 

[Emrys]

Tie him down! Apply the doomweasels!

 

[Fun Size]

It's really more that Dave doesn't like letting us help no matter how much we pressure him to let us.

This is common in chronic masturbators. I've heard.

I wonder - is the issue that not many people are showing up, or not many are participating. I know that I'm a serial lurker who can definitely feel like an outsider, and I was part of the whole PvP migration. Do we have stats on lurkers?

 

[sixpackshaker]

Tie him down! Apply the doomweasels!

Sounds like Nick's prom night.

 

[strawman]

I don't know how to explain it. Most posts I made here are in "stand alone" threads. Rants, epic win, etc, etc. But most of the time I feel like I'm (I don't know what word use in this case) trying to include myself in other people's conversation? You have inside jokes, famous forumites, and It's easy feel like an outsider.

I still feel this way generally.

I agree

Something new for me to ponder! I think of you all as integral parts of the forum, but it sounds like it's how I feel when I go visit a larger forum like PA.

I must have felt that way once as well, but either I needed something from the forum and the forum stepped up (showing me that I wasn't just a wallflower they were content to let wilt) or I must have decided as some point to take a devil-may-care attitude with my posts and go full idiot without regard to the possible consequences.

I suspect it was the latter, but the forum has certainly been the former for me more than once.

What has surprised me is that as tough as the forum can appear on the outside, I've never felt rejected*. I don't know how to expand on this further, but there are certain things about me that could have easily been made fun of, but I can tell people have been very respectful of those things I don't make fun of myself. Despite everyone having seen the "vagina: not a clown car" image, it has never once been posted in one of my many "I have a new baby!" threads.

When nick felt he was being attacked by another long-time poster, and nick just having recovered from a suicide attempt and just barely started feeling ok, a lot of people went on the attack in an effort to protect him. I don't know that it was the best way to handle things, but for those that get past the initial thorns of the forum, it seems that there's a great deal of respect and concern one for another.

But I'm sure there's a multitude of others who have had the opposite experience, and have been, for all intents and purposes, rejected and disrespected.

So your posts suggest that there is a group inbetween that haven't been hurt enough to leave, but also not loved enough to feel like one of the family. Whereas those in the family consider you family just as much as they do other long-time posters.

I don't know what the answer is here, but we should probably try to figure out what the hurdles are and try to reduce them. That alone might increase membership over time...

*by the forum, and generally not as a person. Lots here reject some of my ideas and beliefs, but I'm ok with that. I'll never understand myself if I'm never challenged. Which leads me to wonder if some people feel rejection when all we've done is ask them, "Why do you believe that?" I'm not sure I want to take away that part of the forum - it's one thing that keeps me around.

 

[Emrys]

Despite everyone having seen the "vagina: not a clown car" image, it has never once been posted in one of my many "I have a new baby!" threads...

That's because we know you plan on using your powers for evil instead of good.

 

[Far]

Would you be willing to expand on this?

I don't know how to explain it. Most posts I made here are in "stand alone" threads. Rants, epic win, etc, etc. But most of the time I feel like I'm (I don't know what word use in this case) trying to include myself in other people's conversation? You have inside jokes, famous forumites, and It's easy feel like an outsider.

Edit: This got more rambling than I expected.

I'll preface this by saying, I've been here for years, since the image boards.

I have never felt a part of the "in" crowd here, of which I'd say most of the regular posters are given the size of our forums. Not that I don't belong here or am unwelcome, you know. Kinda like that friend that gets brought to a family reunion, included but...disregarded? That's harsher than I mean this to be.

In a lot of ways, I'm sure that is my own social anxiety manifesting itself and additionally not participating as much as some of you are able to.

I'm happy with this and to have familiar faces to chat with about the things I do post about, mainly games and movies. Every so often I branch out and give a little insight into what's going on in my life via the rant, win and other threads of the like. It does become a bit disheartening to add something to a conversation and to often have it unacknowledged as others continue theirs, seemingly because they know one another better.

In short, while attempts are made to integrate the new members that do arrive and while I feel the forums overall attitude is inclusive, it can be hard to interact in a meaningful way with some to the point of exclusivity.

We also argue, a lot, like any family or close knit group, to the point of estranging some of our members. In most cases, these are spats, forgiven and forgotten by those involved, but I have to wonder how many people we have scared away from ever posting at all because of a steak argument exploding. This has improved recently I believe.

I question whether or not something less tucked away in the corner of the Internet, like our forums are, would be better for us, in terms of growth at least. Something like a halforums sub reddit. This would also eliminate the financial burden placed on running the site though does come with the a huge loss of features. And it would damage the closeness of the community. But, I think that may be what we have to ask ourselves. We certainly don't want to lose what makes us us by opening the flood gates. Can we, if not flourish, at least survive, under current circumstances though?

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

 

[Dave]

Let me be the first to say that the financial portion is not the issue. It has only been once or twice and I've reached out. Right now the advertising brings in about $50 a month, which is enough to offset any costs I have. Unless I go nuts and buy an addon that I think will be cool and it flops. I've done that a few times.

Actually, @Bubble181 has it exactly right. It has to do with the forum being viable in the sense that people are here having good conversations and stuff like that. I mean, I'll keep paying for this place as long as I'm kicking and can afford to do so. But I also want all of you to be able to have a good experience here, and if it's nothing but me and a couple others arguing over stupid shit, it'll get old fast.

People like @Far and @Cog have it exactly right, but I'm not sure how to fix this part of it. It's one of the reasons I keep trying stuff like games, as it can be something we can all try out & give each other good-natured ribbing over.

I know we've gotten some new people and I like these people, like @Yoshimickster and @Emrys, for example. If we could find ways of getting quality individuals like this we'd be all set.

I was going to say something about how certain subs haven't been used very much but Pez's is the only one that hasn't been used in the past few days - and that one last had a post on the 24th! (No, I'm not counting the Hub.)

Does it feel like our conversations are fractured? Do we have too many subs and need to consolidate? (Yes, I know there were people who always wanted to have nothing but one big general board. I concede you might have been right.)

Anyway, I'd continue, but I just got a call from my daughter who is stranded on the side of the road and I have to go play dad and save her. Be back in a while to read the replies.

 

[Cheesy1]

Flap those hooties like Dumbo's ears and fly off to the rescue!

 

[CrimsonSoul]

@stienman I probably wouldn't feel that way if I posted more, but I lurk a lot and that's my problem, I love halforums I'm just mainly a wallflower nothing really against HF

 

[Tinwhistler]

I still feel this way generally.

I think there probably a number of us who do. There are a few cliques of friends, and if you're not part of that 'in' group, you can feel like an outsider.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, and I'm certainly not pointing the finger at anyone.It's just a natural thing that happens when groups of people get together. They tend to find a small subset of people they like, and kind of play off of each other.

I find this place generally fun and like spending time here, even if I'm not necessarily anyone's super-close buddy.

Fortunately, I haven't really experienced any of the nastiness that can sometimes happen with someone's more on the outside than on the inside--and trust me, I've seen that kind of crap on other forums. I'd say that generally, we tend to be pretty welcoming around here. Well, for the most part. We all have our "man up" and "rare steak" moments

 

[Hailey Knight]

I might be part of a group here--I honestly don't know. I feel like an outsider even at family gatherings.

 

[grub]

Honestly, even IRL I speak way less than I listen. I don't watch much in the way of TV and movies, and I don't play many video games. Mostly I read, play music, and play with my kidlets. I suppose I could post more, but I find I have little to say that hasn't already been said by others. I work out of a service van so I have little time during work to post.

I find this place comforting and am not scared to post. I was in the image days due to certain people that were rather aggressive with dissident views.

 

[Chad Sexington]

I love this place, and you guys. I don't really see it as somewhere I'm included or excluded: sure there are posters who are more well known than most either because of their characteristics or their volume of posts (usually a combination) but that's never struck me as an exclusionary thing. If I want to participate in a thread, I can; I know the risks of it being missed, ignored, disliked, etc. I often want to post, but don't have the time, or for other reasons inhibit myself: but that's totally on me, not this place or anyone. I like y'all, as I've said, I'd meet up with any of you given the chance; my couch is open, let's grab beers, whatever. But the whole idea of people feeling like they're on the outside of inner group is frustrating: maybe I don't feel it because I'm on the inside? I don't know - I've certainly never considered myself that way, but is that a problem, too? Things to think about...

Does it feel like our conversations are fractured? Do we have too many subs and need to consolidate? (Yes, I know there were people who always wanted to have nothing but one big general board. I concede you might have been right.).

I think I argued for a single General board, but now, I'd not want it, unless I could unsubscribe from threads: I unsubscribe from a lot of the sub-forums because I have no interest and I get tired of seeing them in my What's New list. The current system is by no means perfect, since there are still threads I don't care about I can't hide, but at least there are far fewer of them making it easier to see threads I do want to check up on.

 

[Bowielee]

I feel like we have this conversation every year, but here we still are.

 

[MindDetective]

I say sail on Halforums. I imagine if the forum was going to close shop next month, many of us would connect through G+ or Facebook or twitter or all of them and continue saying and doing a lot of the things we do now. As it stands, I come here more frequently than I do those other places combined, even if I mainly lurk. The psychologist in me sees this thread in part as a reaction to N_R's passing. We cannot help but question our existence in such times. If the community (small as it is) is genuinely tight-knit (and I believe it is), then we will persist in some form. Here is very comfortable, so I'm all for keeping this boat on course.

PS - I may not be the most active poster but I imagine I'm recognizable enough. I don't feel like I cannot say anything. I've never really had that as a hang-up, though.

PPS - If you actually want to draw more visitors, you have two options: tie this place strongly to social networking (where we can draw in like-minded friends and family) or generate content (where we draw in like-minded strangers). Both would require concerted, coordinated effort. That's not insurmountable. It will just take commitment.

 

[Covar]

Does it feel like our conversations are fractured? Do we have too many subs and need to consolidate? (Yes, I know there were people who always wanted to have nothing but one big general board. I concede you might have been right.)

If there was a better way to filter the board I'd be more for this, although it might hurt some of your revenue on the listing pages. I like the thread tags, but even filtering by them feels clunky and unflexible. So I say not a good idea with XenForo.

 

[Zappit]

Hmmm...we've talked about building around webcomics. Fade and Angels both have subforums. What if we invited a few comics to have official forums here? Supervillainous could get one, and I know a few active cartoonists that might take us up on such an offer.

That would bring in new members, and with a little encouragement, we could entice them to explore the board as a whole. We might also be able to attract an artsy crowd if we plug on DeviantArt.

And look, this might seem self-serving, but I recently installed Google Analytics on Supervillainous, and my audience is growing - slowly, but it is growing. If the folks here that like it plug it other places, that will bring traffic here. SV's homepage has a very prominent Halforums button intended to drive traffic here. I've got a potentially big boost coming up next week - I'll be the Spiderforest Comic of the Week, and that might bring in several hundred new visitors, and I can plug Halforums then.