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Well, we should probably define "natural" consequence and I would say consequences come in a variety of ways, often in ways that aren't totally obvious to us, and that spiritual consequences are natural to us, since we are spiritual and physical beings. So I would disagree that you can "sin" a lot and not have any consequences, especially when you factor in that each sin isn't a sin against yourself but against the Perfect and Loving God who created you with the intent of you NOT having to deal with the pain (both spiritual and physical) that comes from sin intruding on our lives. And example of that would be, I can do things that to me, might not hurt me or cause me pain, but they very well might hurt and pain my wife should I do them. I can have sex with some random girl, and it wouldn't hurt me (although if she had the HIV then it might have it's own nasty consequences for me), but my wife would be deeply hurt. Should I not have sex with Ms. March so that I don't run the risk of STD's? Or should I not do it so my wife isn't hurt deeply and our relationship destroyed? I wouldn't avoid it out of fear, although fear wouldn't be a bad motive, but because I LOVE my wife and don't to cause her pain. It's very similar to our relationship with God. Or course, if you don't believe in the same God I do you wouldn't understand why you would worry about hurting Him or your relationship with Him. (The "you" I use is generic, just an FYI)

So I completely disagree with the assertion that it's about people obeying so that God doesn't punish them. Oh sure, there are religious groups that assert that, I would argue that is amazingly wrong and in NO way scriptural. It is not what I believe, nor what most of Christians I know believe.

As far as "God setting it all up", that's a big one. The idea there is that He simply set up a universe where there is law. You let go of an apple and it falls. You sin and you have to deal with consequences. A+B=C. A scientists dream if you will. WE choose to sin. Those around us CHOOSE to sin. In both cases we all have to deal with each other's choices. The good and the bad. We can choose, that even in the bad or the good to continue to have a relationship with Him, knowing that this life is only a small part of eternity and that His love will sustain us as He promises it will, or we can reject that. There are, and this is important, consequences to all of the above choices. Good and bad depending on your point of view.

In the end we have to remember it wasn't supposed to be this way. The "myth" of the Garden of Eden was, in a sense, supposed to be our lives (not living in a garden, society and history would have progressed similarly). We were supposed to live lives untouched by sin or pain or death or suffering and instead live lives in loving relationship with each other and with our Creator. But choices were made and now He has spent all of history working to redeem us so we can have a restored relationship.

One of the cool things about the Bible is that we tend to look at it as how things work for OUR lives. Like it's OUR story. It's not. It's God's story. He's the main character and his desperate attempts to recapture our hearts with His love.
Good discussion, not that I'm surprised, I feel like you and I have always had good discussion without lowering ourselves to petty comments or anything. I like that we can respect each other's beliefs.
Thanks man.
I guess a big one I'd center to that argument, separating natural as physical or worldly, and then purely spiritual as something else. Using your example, I would call having sex with whoever to have natural consequences--possibility of disease, and hurting loved ones. But there's others that I'd see as purely spiritual, such as taking God's name in vain, or idolatry. Those don't seem to have what I'd see as a natural consequences, but more spiritual ones. God sets up the spiritual repercussions, which would be in his power to change if he chose to do so. Lots of people doing the "in vain" one, and I can idolize the fuck out of shit.

Probably I see it that way because I see the physical universe as one, and then spiritual as the next, when I view the Christian theological system. The whole "heaven is the real home" model that a lot of evangelicals have taken up in which Earth is some failed experiment, and people are just supposed to get through it.

Even ignoring that, I still have to look at it from an outside POV and see that some things (like my examples) have no consequence outside of reward/punishment chosen by God. I don't see them as set like gravity.

That said, that may be because I'm not part of it. In my faith, things are more immediate, less permanent. You do wrong, it WILL come back, not by any deity's decision, but because that's the way the universe works. Same for good. And a physical bad can reflux in an emotional bad.

That may seem hypocritical, that I view it as natural in mine but not in yours, but it's not because I'm not in yours. It's because in Christianity, God has a bigger role. He's the creator, he shapes it all--like you said, he's the main character of the Bible, so I see it as more his decision to have a heaven/hell dynamic.

And I like our discussions too. I know what you're saying with the "some Christians" and I know they're a vocal minority. It's hard not to see them, which is why I phrase some aspects of my arguments the way I do.[/QUOTE]

Totally! You have to phrase them that way since it is, in the end, the way most people experience Christianity. We all have generalizations about people/things and they aren't bad to address.

You know, regarding the spiritual/natural worlds, yes they are separate in Christian theology/worldview but they are also interconnected. It's frustrating when Christians put so much emphasis on heaven/end rewards since Christ told us to look towards it but run the race here on earth. The worlds are, then, in my opinion, all part of the same universe. The spiritual and the natural are, according to scripture, literally affecting each other. It's hard for me then, as a Christian to not have that shape my views on consequences (all kinds of them, good and bad, spiritual and natural).
So yes, the sex issue we are discussing has, most obviously, physical/natural consequences, but according to Scripture it is also the only physical act between two people that joins them spiritually, or another way to put it is, your souls literally touch when you have sex, making it an even more amazingly intimate act than if it was purely physical.
Regarding things like "take God's name in vain" I think we can look at that as a simple rebelling against the authority above you. When a cop pulls you over you don't say, "What can I do for you you mothersmurfing pig?". You give him the respect his badge demands. God's place, as the perfect, creator of the universe deserves this modicum of respect, just like any king/president/etc but in way that makes them look like ants. So yes, there are some things that probably mainly have spiritual consequences. However, we each one has unique things about it that may change that.
In the OT we saw people stray from God to other idols. This caused the destruction of nations due to their weakening spiritually. So there were some very serious consequences to what seemed to be a spiritual thing.
Either way, Christians who look at earth as a failed experiment like you said (and many do), are clearly missing the point of the Bible and God's message to us. Like I said above, there are clear purposes to why we are here, and sin is merely a kink in the wheels, not a destruction of the purposes.
 
I can see what you're saying, though so many examples from the Bible involve God taking direct action. I suppose that's the symbolism taking action, that "this happened, now you learn from it". I have a hard time seeing it that way, since some of it is symbolic, some of it is meant to be taken as direct, and I guess I have an all or nothing view of it.

Again, that's not from being in a different faith. I think that's just how I've always looked at some aspects of spirituality. The reason I left Christianity as a teen was because of the whole "you can only get to heaven through me" thing (paraphrased) and I saw that as really exclusionairy, didn't make sense that you could be a good person and not be okay by God because of differing religion, and ended up viewing Christianity as group hate. Years later, a friend pointed that to me as being symbolism of God as good, and that by "through him", it meant being good. Or like a CS Lewis thing, of "by being good, you were always serving me".

By then I was too far removed to go back, but it made sense. I know that's also why there is so much squabbling and people like we've mentioned who view Earth as a failed experiment; there's so much text and substance, people are going to have different views and interpretations. It's simply too much content to be simple.
 
Punishment for what exactly?

Make sure to be dumb? Obey for no reason?

Or God was afraid people would become as him by eating from the tree of life? It's like fucking Xenogears!
Knowledge of Good and Evil... Good and Evil... that has nothing at all to do with being dumb...

And He gave them a reason, if they eat it they will die... they did and they became mortal.





Probably I see it that way because I see the physical universe as one, and then spiritual as the next, when I view the Christian theological system. The whole "heaven is the real home" model that a lot of evangelicals have taken up in which Earth is some failed experiment, and people are just supposed to get through it.
Your seeing it wrong... even in the craziest evangelical belief system i'm aware of Earth is more of a testing ground...
 
Probably I see it that way because I see the physical universe as one, and then spiritual as the next, when I view the Christian theological system. The whole "heaven is the real home" model that a lot of evangelicals have taken up in which Earth is some failed experiment, and people are just supposed to get through it.
Your seeing it wrong... even in the craziest evangelical belief system i'm aware of Earth is more of a testing ground...
I'm pretty sure that's what I said.

Well, I'll relay the words of one evangelical I've argued with before. Earth is a bad place, God has given up on it, the only reason souls are sent here first is to test their worthiness in the worst of conditions for it... basically a thought system that diminishes any value in life on Earth, the people you meet, ideas, actions... Basically, hole up, wait it out, God's bringing you home soon.
 

fade

Staff member
One problem I have with the Eden story is that there is no way man would not have fallen out of some perfect existence. We're inquisitive by nature (or by creation, if that's your belief). We would have been predestined by our very natures to fall from grace. Many better authors than me have explored the ennui of bliss. It seems rather strange to wind up a toy car designed to roll in a straight line and expect it to stay in a small circle.

As for the Earth v. Heaven argument, I wrote this a while back: http://personal.fadecomic.com/?p=13
 
Pretty much agree with that on the concept of heaven.

And also on your other paragraph. It's interesting in some authors' work on Christianity how the "fall" was part of God's plan, God being in control, and Adam and Eve were supposed to fuck it all up.

Kinda puts the whole heaven idea into question too. If that's also supposed to be happy perfect land because it's God's country, why wouldn't humans fuck that up as well? Really, in either beginning or end, there's not much to a story where nothing happens.
 
Probably I see it that way because I see the physical universe as one, and then spiritual as the next, when I view the Christian theological system. The whole "heaven is the real home" model that a lot of evangelicals have taken up in which Earth is some failed experiment, and people are just supposed to get through it.
Your seeing it wrong... even in the craziest evangelical belief system i'm aware of Earth is more of a testing ground...
I'm pretty sure that's what I said.

Well, I'll relay the words of one evangelical I've argued with before. Earth is a bad place, God has given up on it, the only reason souls are sent here first is to test their worthiness in the worst of conditions for it... basically a thought system that diminishes any value in life on Earth, the people you meet, ideas, actions... Basically, hole up, wait it out, God's bringing you home soon.[/QUOTE]

Dude, the testing is probably the most important part... might as well say that the effort being put in the race is diminished in importance because of the medal.

Yeah, crazies interpret it wrong and might "hole up", but imo that's failing.
 
One problem I have with the Eden story is that there is no way man would not have fallen out of some perfect existence. We're inquisitive by nature (or by creation, if that's your belief). We would have been predestined by our very natures to fall from grace. Many better authors than me have explored the ennui of bliss. It seems rather strange to wind up a toy car designed to roll in a straight line and expect it to stay in a small circle.
I totally agree. When you take it literally as far to many Christians due, it's hard not to see that.
When you take it in it's appropriate literary genre (Ancient Myth) it suddenly changes things. It is simply meant to explain the relationship between God (or gods depending on which Ancient Near Eastern creation account you are reading) and humanity. In this case the explanation is basically this: God creates universe for humankind to enjoy. Humans and God share a relationship. Things are not perfect (again, a serious misnomer about the Garden of Edan, the Bible makes it clear it's not "perfect" since we see part of Eve's curse be "MORE" pain in childbirth, implying that pain was already a part of their life) but they are wonderful. Humanity is tempted by semi-false promises by the serpent. Humanity rebels against God, seeking to "be like Him", which clearly their pride and arrogance backfires and the relationship between God and humanity is damaged. Now God is seeking to re-establish that relationship.
No pre-destination, no created to sin, utter and complete free-will, tempered by actual relationship with a Perfect God but tempted by the serpent and a decision to give in.
That's a more accurate understanding of the creation/Garden of Eden account. It's not mine mind you, that's a terribly rough summary of some of my favorite scholars works. I mean, in the end you can still say, "Oh well I think humanity was created with a pre-destined fall, etc, etc. Which is fine, I can't stop you but I don't see it anywhere in the text and would argue it's reading far to much into what is there.
 

fade

Staff member
I understand you're viewing the story as myth. That's why I tried to avoid directly referencing events in the story. My point is that I don't think that man, unless he was originally somehow different than he is now, would've always sought to know and be like a God. Especially one they seemed to know more directly. If we're interpreting, in fact, we could interpret the Serpent as our own predisposition to reason and opine about the nature of the universe and God, and our natural ambition to be more than what we are. It actually meshes really well with the concept of the Tree, which is directly referred to as knowledge. Curiosity -> Knowledge -> Fall. It may be utter and complete free will, but we're all by our primate nature almost predestined to follow the path (to mix science and religion) of curiosity, and are therefore likely to "fall". The same idea appears again in the Babel story.
 
Interesting ideas. I would argue slightly different understanding based upon my studies and work in the field, and I would say that before performing a critique or interpretation it's better to start at the place other Ancient Near Eastern literature scholars come from: The authors intent and the cultural context of the literature rather than our own current cultural context.

Either way it's still fascinating to talk about :)
 
I jump here, in the middle of the talk, having just quickly read the answers and without no specific knowledge nor work in the field to say that I always have seen the story of Adam and Eve as a symboic explanation of the moment humans stopped being like all animals and became rational ("Like god"). Suddenly, there was nakedness*, good and evil, the world was percieved as harder and the relationships between events were understood...

I don't know, this has always been my personal interpretation of this myth, wich made it one of my favourite ones from the Bible.

EDIT:

*As a concept. Of course, what really "began" was CLOTHING.
 
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