PEOPLE IN SAUNAS! Was About Traditional Marriage

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figmentPez

Staff member
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

You do understad that the bible you read has gone though several translations and sometimes contradicts itself, right?
I realize that there are multiple translations of the Bible. However, I do no know of any definitive contradictions aside from simple typographical numerical contradictions (1,000 Israelites vs 100 Iraelites) that are non-doctrinal. I do know that there are many supposed contradictions, but they're pretty much along the lines of someone taking a science text and saying "here it says that electrons travel at the speed of sound, and here it says that electricity travels at the speed of light, so this science textbook contradicts itself!" It's not a contradiction if you examine the concepts being conveyed, rather than preconceptions.

---------- Post added at 08:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

That's the crux of the problem. I believe that the bible is much more than just a book, others do not. Why on earth should they take it seriously like we do? They shouldn't! They have no reason to.
Well, no reason that has been given in this thread. There exists ample reason to take Jesus Christ seriously, even if they are not aware of it, or have dismissed it out of hand.

This is why when we get into these kinds of arguments it's just beating our heads against brick walls to an extent. We are dealing with matters of faith and belief that are bridges we cannot mutually exist together on.
I didn't really start posting in this thead looking for a religious debate or argument. I simply wanted to point out a news event I was aware of. Then I was asked questions about what I believe, and I answered.
 
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Andromache

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

I don't believe the Bible simply because it exists and people told me to believe in it. There is ample evidence that the Bible is what it claims to be, while other books and belief systems are not.

Ample evidence? Oh really? Such as?

Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. Giving or procuring evidence is the process of using those things that are either a) presumed to be true, or b) were themselves proven via evidence, to demonstrate an assertion's truth. Evidence is the currency by which one fulfills the burden of proof.
So yes, since you assert there is ample evidence, I await its procurement so that under such fulfillment of the burden of proof, I can repent, take up your god as my saviour and marry a good man. And don't say that isn't your job, the whole Great Commission thing kinda says otherwise.

Unless of course, you selectively choose which part of the Truth Almighty to follow.
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

But what is being conveyed in the Bible as a whole or in individual passages is something that two different people may not agree on. The only thing that is impossible to discuss is the exact words used, and as you are saying (if I get you right) one needs to go beyond that literal interpretation (even if only because literal reading is not coherent). Hence why I say that god's commandments are open to interpretation.

With science books you can find explanations about every single little thing and therefore there is not much space for interpretation. The Bible is much more complex and doesn't spell it out so much, so it allows different readings.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Ample evidence? Oh really? Such as?
Go here: http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/ Ask your questions. You've already spat in my face, figuratively. Why should I believe you even care what evidence convinced me?

---------- Post added at 08:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------

With science books you can find explanations about every single little thing and therefore there is not much space for interpretation.
Oh good grief. Do you really believe this? You can't find explanations of everything in science books, and there is a lot of space for interpretation in advanced sciences. You are aware that the theories of lift and areodyamics the Wright Brothers successfully tested and built their plane on, and those held for decades after, ultimately were proven to be false, aren't you?
 
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Andromache

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

So you're asking someone else to present the ample evidence you claims exists. You can't or won't do it yourself. You've failed the burden of proof part of the assertion. Thought so.
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Also, I sincerely think (and please no one be offended. I'm just posting a personal belief, if you want to see it that way) that it's a bit delusional thinking the bible is the exact word of god given that it was transmitted and written by men, and rewritten again.


Aaand I'm thinking I don't understand why you'd want to prove faith. If you do that it stops being faith and becomes knowledge. Is that why you say that you know, fig?

Edit: Also, even if you can prove the Bible is God's word and whatnot, there's the interpretation matter.




I'm asking a partly unrrelated question too: does it say it clearly (or can be easily inferred) in the Bible that the world is 6000 years old?



.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Aaand I'm thinking I don't understand why you'd want to prove faith. If you do that it stops being faith and becomes knowledge. Is that because you say that you know, fig?
You and I have very different definitions of faith. If what you believe is evidenced to be true, it does not change faith into something else. Knowledge and faith are two different classes of things. Faith, as the Bible uses the term, is not blind belief in something. Faith is the knowledge based belief that God is who He says He is, and that He will do what He says He will do. It is the assurance for the future that God will continue to be who He is already known to be, the foundation of hope.

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

I'm asking a partly unrrelated question too: does it say it clearly (or can be easily inferred) in the Bible that the world is 6000 years old?
No, it doesn't. It takes quite a bit of math and assumptions to even reach that number (counting ages in genealogies, assuming that all the begats are direct relationships, even in the face of evidence that such phrases often talked about grandsons or great-great-grandsons). Even if someone believes that Genesis is a completely literal book, and that things happened exactly as it recounts, with no room for poetic imagery and/or metaphysical allegory, it still takes more than a simple quotation of scripture to arrive at the approximate timeline of Adam and Eve being ~6,000 years ago.
 
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SeraRelm

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Token says Stan doesn't get it.
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

You and I have very different definitions of faith. If what you believe is evidenced to be true, it does not change faith into something else. Knowledge and faith are two different classes of things. Faith, as the Bible uses the term, is not blind belief in something. Faith is the knowledge based belief that God is who He says He is, and that He will do what He says He will do. It is the assurance for the future that God will continue to be who He is already known to be, the foundation of hope.


Wait wait. Belief IS something different than knowledge. If it's completely proven it isn't belief but knowledge. Although if you mean belief based in a certain amount of knowledge to back it or make it sound but not covering it, that I can accept.

What is a bit more problematic for me is the previous point that there is so much proof that the Bible is the true thing. If that's true, how come there isn't A LOT more people who know about it?


No, it doesn't. It takes quite a bit of math and assumptions to even reach that number (counting ages in genealogies, assuming that all the begats are direct relationships, even in the face of evidence that such phrases often talked about grandsons or great-great-grandsons). Even if someone believes that Genesis is a completely literal book, and that things happened exactly as it recounts, with no room for poetic imagery and/or metaphysical allegory, it still takes more than a simple quotation of scripture to arrive at the approximate timeline of Adam and Eve being ~6,000 years ago.
Thaat's what I thought, wanted to make sure. Thanks!
 
M

meyoumeyou

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Skipping from the O.P. straight to this because theres no telling whats in those 4 pages...


...seriously, if anyone wants the general pointless blight that is marriage, my condolences and more power to you.


(though I can admittedly understand it having a certain purpose and appeal for those who have been discouraged and outright barred from being a part of it.)
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Wait wait. Belief IS something different than knowledge. If it's completely proven it isn't belief but knowledge. Although if you mean belief based in a certain amount of knowledge to back it or make it sound but not covering it, that I can accept.

What is a bit more problematic for me is the previous point that there is so much proof that the Bible is the true thing. If that's true, how come there isn't A LOT more people who know about it?
We're defining words differently. Most knowledge is simply something that is believed. Even raw data involves some kind of belief. I'd rather not devolve into solipsism, or worse, though.

As to why evidence for the Bible isn't more widely known? Well, first and foremost is prejudice. We're all sinners who don't want to look into the mirror and see who we really are. (See Romans 1). As long as we don't face the evidence, we don't have to face ourselves.
- Second is the power of skepticism in philosophy. It's easy to doubt everything, but the consequences of such doubt is destruction of the self as well. Even in face of that, and all the skeptic philosophers who have driven themselves to alcoholism and death, it still remains easier to reject all evidence individually than it is to take it all as a whole and see the big picture. A doesn't prove anything alone, so it's not evidence. B by itself isn't compelling. C is just hearsay.... QuadrupleZF might just be a coincidence...
- Thirdly, a lot of evidence is individual. It means something to one person, but that wouldn't hold the same weight to another. For instance, in the ongoing knowledge of God in my life was the miraculous healing of my older sister's broken neck, during chemotherapy. You can't see the X-rays and CAT scans and other medicial evidence I have seen, not on these forums at least. You can't know the path her life took both before and after. For those reading this post it's just a medical fluke. A random chance thing that is explained as a unusual occurance, even though it has no medical explanation. (skeptecism, again) Or maybe it's easier to believe I'm just lying. More than just personal stories, what is important to one person isn't important to another. To some archeological finds are amazing, to others they're just rocks. To some philosophial arguments hold great sway, to others the most poignant words are flimsy nothing compared to actions.
- Fourth, there's a lot of bad scholarship out there. Same holds true for most other fields though. It's easy to set up strawmen of those doing a poor job.
- Fifth, many Christians don't bother to learn more than it took to convince them of the truth. It's sad but true, there aren't many people who seek to know all might be used to convince anyone.
- and many reasons besides.
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

What is a bit more problematic for me is the previous point that there is so much proof that the Bible is the true thing. If that's true, how come there isn't A LOT more people who know about it?
There is plenty of evidence that scriptures are authentic. You can believe that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses, and that the Pauline Letters were written and sent within a century after the crucifixion of Jesus. However, due to the nature of the writings, the writers, and the circumstances they claim to tell of, the contents of the Testament will forever be under scrutiny.

Which is quite frankly where they belong anyhow. I don't subscribe to the notion that blind faith is the purest faith. Those who have not seen but still believe can have their extra blessing, if there is any. But it isn't for me. I don't believe it's for most people.

If you don't mind the notion of throwing away an afternoon reading Christian literature, I'd encourage you to read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. I put it only a half-step behind the bible in importance to a Christian, and to a non-Christian, it might be a valuable look into how an intellectual such as Lewis came to be convinced of the gospel.

Let me be clear: this is not me evangelizing. Mere Christianity isn't the conversion button by a long shot. But I think it will at the very least be enlightening to anyone curious about the mind of a theist.
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

What is a bit more problematic for me is the previous point that there is so much proof that the Bible is the true thing. If that's true, how come there isn't A LOT more people who know about it?
There is plenty of evidence that scriptures are authentic. You can believe that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses, and that the Pauline Letters were written and sent within a century after the crucifixion of Jesus. However, due to the nature of the writings, the writers, and the circumstances they claim to tell of, the contents of the Testament will forever be under scrutiny.
[/QUOTE]

That much I know, of course (Well, I thought it was unclear a couple of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses but that's not important). By 'true thing' I mean 'the real word of god', which is what I understood fig was saying.
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Well, I thought it was unclear a couple of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses but that's not important.
Technically all the gospels where rewritten or transcribed a couple of times some time before the 3rd century when they finally decided what should go in the Bible and what shouldn't or was simply heresy.
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Well, I thought it was unclear a couple of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses but that's not important.
Technically all the gospels where rewritten or transcribed a couple of times some time before the 3rd century when they finally decided what should go in the Bible and what shouldn't or was simply heresy.[/QUOTE]

When the early church fathers decided what would become scripture and what would not, it wasn't as arbitrary as some might have you believe. Most of the doccuments (including the gospels) were already widely used in the Church. The church in Bobville might not have used the Gospel of John, and the church in Icecream City might have also had readings from the Gospel of the Fonz, but the libraries that the various churches had assembled would have all looked pretty similar to the testament we use now. The most controversial book in the canonization process was the Apocolypse of John, and while some end-of-the-world Christians might lean heavily on it, it's hardly integral to our understanding of the life, works, and message of Jesus.

As far as the proof that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses, the lack of evidence to the contrary acutally acts as proof for their authenticity. Christianity was originally seen as a breakaway Jewish sect, and the Jewish authority didn't like that. If the gospels were written within a generation of the death of Jesus, then plenty of jews had the opportunity to contradict what the gospel writers had said. And the Jewish authority would have made a very clear record of any objections. Since there are no contradictions recorded by the Jews, it's very safe to assume that there were none, or if there were: that they were entirely insubstantial.
 
S

SeraRelm

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

My God's realer than your god! *throws a few more books on the fire* No one's said anything to the contrary!
 
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Andromache

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

There's a lesson to be learned from the ramblings dear Sera, and that lesson is this "credibility be damned, I still get to be righteous, and that matters more than anything."
 
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SeraRelm

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

I only really read this latest installment of "My [strike]faith[/strike] FACTS!" to be honest. It was the shortest one so far.
 
A

Andromache

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Well, if nothing else, discussions like these are revealing in character. Take me for example, I now not only get to dislike Orson Scott Card, but also Rob King and Figpez. That's like a bonus! And I don't have to feel bad for them, because they have their god to console them. And I still get to be gay and heretical! Everyone wins!
 
C

Chibibar

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5280336n

LOL.. I love the last line. (I find it very funny and hypocritical)
That it was spoken by a loud woman in a do-rag and tie-dyed shirt just goes to show you that you can't judge books by covers, I suppose.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't she know she could catch the gay from that ice cream?[/QUOTE]

Heh. I wonder if there is a sign saying, "by accepting this ice cream, you are supporting gay rights" will she still eat it?

I am guessing yes.
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

But she's taking measures! She won't give any to the kid, who is vulnerable to the gay and eat it all herserf.

Ahh mothers. Always thinking of their kids :)
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Just so I am clear, anti-gay marriage protest groups are just as inane as militant pro-gay marriage groups then?
Yes. Basically, anybody standing on a sidewalk with a sign is probably a douchebag, no matter what side of what issue he's on.[/QUOTE]

Well! My "Eat at Joe's" sign an I will go somewhere we're more appreciated! :angry:

Also, since I'm sick of talking about this topic with this forum (everyone has posted the same old debates in the last 10 threads about gay marriage) I'll just present one thing to think about.

Without homosexuality, where will lesbian porn come from??

:smug:
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Without homosexuality, where will lesbian porn come from??
Same place it comes from now, porn actresses getting payed to do it...


Well, if nothing else, discussions like these are revealing in character. Take me for example, I now not only get to dislike Orson Scott Card, but also Rob King and Figpez. That's like a bonus! And I don't have to feel bad for them, because they have their god to console them. And I still get to be gay and heretical! Everyone wins!
I don't think being an unbeliever makes you heretical...
 
A

Andromache

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

I don't think being an unbeliever makes you heretical...
Heresy is proposing some unorthodox change to an established system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established opinion of scholars of that belief such as canon.
like say, acceptance of gay marriage as just as good as heterosexual marriage.
 
T

Tiq

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

...wooooow.


You know... some of the posts in here remind me of exactly why I don't get involved in these so called "civil discussions"


Like this wonderful little nugget of bullshit, for example...
Go here: http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/ Ask your questions. You've already spat in my face, figuratively. Why should I believe you even care what evidence convinced me?

You've just got to love the hypocrisy, don't you? A man complaining about small mindedness, when he's already stated near the beginning of the discussion that he's got a problem with homosexuality.
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

I don't think being an unbeliever makes you heretical...
Heresy is proposing some unorthodox change to an established system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established opinion of scholars of that belief such as canon.
like say, acceptance of gay marriage as just as good as heterosexual marriage.[/QUOTE]

if you're thinking heresy in terms of social mores then right... but i'm pretty sure you're not preaching that the Bible or God says it's ok...

As in you're only a heretic if you're a Christian but not another religion (muslims and jews sharing the old testament etc. make that muddy, but you should get what i mean).
 
A

Andromache

Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

see, i firmly believe "God" says it's ok, and that the Bible isn't the final arbiter of "God" yet and that Christianity as a whole is just a superstructured framework to impose political will upon populations.

"Do as is written in this book or our God will smite you, even though he loves you."
 
Traditional Marriage (was Books discussion)

Go here: http://faithcommunitynetwork.com/ Ask your questions. You've already spat in my face, figuratively. Why should I believe you even care what evidence convinced me?

You've just got to love the hypocrisy, don't you? A man complaining about small mindedness, when he's already stated near the beginning of the discussion that he's got a problem with homosexuality.
...

I don't see anybody here crusading, or acting in hatred toward homosexuals. Not even those who believe it's wrong. They believe it's unnatural, and are discussing why they think that. I don't see intolerance. I see disagreement.

I'm not going to mince words. I think both figiment and espy's opinions on the matter are dated. In a few decades, they will be seen with the same eyes that see heliocentricists now. But getting up in their faces for being 'intolerant' is both idiotic, and counterproductive.

I give you my full blessing if you want to tear into someone who actually hates homosexuals. That's intolerance. And like I said in a previous post, I've torn into those people myself. But you take a man who simply disagrees on the mechanics, reasons, or nature of homosexuality, a man who until today was at least tolerant, if unsettled by the idea. Take that man, and fly at him for being intolerant, and he soon will be.

And then you've taken one previously possibly-swayable-by-the-facts vote for Prop 8, and turn it into a 'damn-homer-sekshuls-killed-mah-dog' vote.

---------- Post added at 10:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

see, i firmly believe \"God\" says it's ok, and that the Bible isn't the final arbiter of \"God\" yet and that Christianity as a whole is just a superstructured framework to impose political will upon populations.

\"Do as is written in this book or our God will smite you, even though he loves you.\"
Crone, this might sound rediculous considering how angry at you I was yesterday, but you just hit the nail so hard on the head it isn't even funny.
 
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