New healthcare bill isn't dreaded socialism

[Steven Soderburgin]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/ap_ ... e_overhaul

It is literally designed to fuck over everyone except for the insurance companies. The Republicans took out anything that might be remotely beneficial to anyone except for corporate interests and the new "compromised" bill pretty much guarantees that every single poor person will go bankrupt from health care expenses.

Look at this quote from the article:

Individuals would have a mandate to buy affordable insurance, but companies would not have a requirement to offer it.

Let me repeat.

Individuals would have a mandate to buy affordable insurance, but companies would not have a requirement to offer it.

Your government hates you.

I have no will to live.

Death to America.

-- Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:12 pm --

No, seriously, it's as if they said, "Boy, a bunch of people don't have insurance. I wonder why that is? Well, no time for that now. I know how to fix this, we'll MAKE them get insurance! Good work, everyone."

 

[The Messiah]

Death to America.

 

[Krisken]

Death to America.

You used to be funny. What happened?

 

[Chad Sexington]

I laugh at the catch-22 nature of this, but honestly that's ridiculously full of shit. If that's a realistic interpretation of the bill, then wow. Just fucking wow.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

aaaaugh this is so disgusting, it's just forcing everyone to buy private insurance, it is literally forcing you to support the current failing system. the thing about not charging more for pre-existing care just means that they will charge EVERYONE more all the time to make up the loss, and there will be no reason to improve care or lower prices aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuugh this is absolutely the worst possible fucking thing they could've done fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck


"Hey, citizens, sorry about fucking you over on this health care thing, I'm going to feel really terrible about it while I'm rolling around in my piles of money from the insurance lobbies." - The US Government

I wish I could say there was any hope whatsoever of Obama not signing this thing when it hits his desk, but he's going to sign any piece of paper that says "Reform" at the top that crosses his fucking desk aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaugh i want to die

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Hahahaha I can't claim credit for this, my brother wrote this, but the laughter distracted from the tears for a brief moment:

"So it's like our current system..."

"right"

"...but now we can force everyone to pay into it..."

"yup"

"so we used the spectre of socialism and the idea of the free market to actually utterly remove even the remotest aspects of choice or buyer power from the system, thus defeating capitalism and the free market entirely and instituting a bizarre, perverse kind of reverse-socialism"

"you've got it"

"oh my god i need to jack off"

 

[ElJuski]

Your avatar is an awesome gauge of your reaction to reading the reform bill

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Your avatar is an awesome gauge of your reaction to reading the reform bill

I really should change my sig to reflect this

 

[tegid]

-Hey! We have like, 45 million people without a medical insurance! We need to reform healthcare!
-Healthcare is bad and innefficient! It costs us a lot of money!
-But we can make it more efficient if we reform it!
-Healthcare is bad and innefficient! It costs us a lot of money!
-Look... Insurance companies won't lose any money. In fact, they will earn even more, allright?
-Woo! Healthcare reform for the win!

 

[Enresshou]

Reading the entire fucking article is normally a good thing before you scream the sky's falling.

In the Senate, officials stressed that no agreement has been reached on a bipartisan measure, and said there is no guarantee of one. They also warned that numerous key issues remain to be settled, including several options to pay for the legislation. They spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they were not authorized to discuss matters under private negotiations.

They said any legislation that emerges from the talks is expected to provide for a nonprofit cooperative to sell insurance in competition with private industry, rather than giving the federal government a role in the marketplace. The White House and numerous Democrats in Congress have called for a government option to provide competition to private companies and hold down costs.

One of the senators involved in the talks, Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, confirmed that co-ops are the preferred approach. "The co-op is certainly one of the prominent options that is on the table," Snowe told reporters after the group met Monday. "It's safe to say that'll probably remain in the final document."

Officials also said a bipartisan compromise would not subject companies to a penalty if they declined to offer coverage to their workers. Instead, these businesses would be required to reimburse the government for part or all of any federal subsidies designed to help lower-income employees obtain insurance on their own.

 

[tegid]

'a nonprofit cooperative to sell insurance in competition with private industry'

That would probably be better than what you have right now... But I can't help thinking there will still be people left out. If I read it right, everyone will still have to pay for their own insurance, right?

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Hey I did read the whole article. This is the solution the bipartisan committee came to, and they're going to try to push it through by the end of next week, i.e. the end of this legislative session before the Senate goes on vacation.

Even if it doesn't pass the Senate (I'm wondering how likely this is, considering how easy it would be to turn a "no" vote on this proposal or a similarly horrible proposal into "Voted against spreading health care to more Americans"), the fact that the committee even considered this is horrifying.

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:19 am --

If I read it right, everyone will still have to pay for their own insurance, right?

Yes. Under this proposal, you would have to buy private insurance or get a tax penalty.

 

[tegid]

Well fuck. And what about the current system? Will it disappear? Maybe that's for the better since it would allow to build a new one from scratch without the supposedly terrible flaws the current one has? (inefficiency, etc)

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:28 am --

(Just trying to look at it positively. Of course this isn't good at all)

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Well fuck. And what about the current system? Will it disappear? Maybe that's for the better since it would allow to build a new one from scratch without the supposedly terrible flaws the current one has? (inefficiency, etc)

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:28 am --

(Just trying to look at it positively. Of course this isn't good at all)

Well, see, this proposal is basically the same as the current system, except you have to buy into it.

 

[tegid]

If only you, as a society, didn't have this psychosis against anything that sounds like 'socialism' to you (even if it isn't)...

 

[TDK1987]

I really don't understand America's stance on this, why is it so controversial to set up something like the UK's NHS? I've got free health care and i'm not a member of the socialist party aranoid:

 

[@Li3n]

Shut your mouth you lying commie...

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:46 am --

BTW, as i understand it the UK's system is one of the worst examples of a "socialist" one, and there are better ones to copy... which is why they're all bringing up the UK one when talking against a "socialist" system.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

I really don't understand America's stance on this, why is it so controversial to set up something like the UK's NHS? I've got free health care and i'm not a member of the socialist party aranoid:

Well, see, we believe that the free market will be best for everyone and everything. Well, everything except the police. Also, the fire department. Oh, and schools and roads, too.

The mail, though! The free market is best for that!

It will ALWAYS work toward the best interests of the peo-*completely disregards that the housing market and banking industry and much of our current financial crisis is the result of unregulated businesses running wild and doing whatever they wanted*

 

[tegid]

Hey, your roads should be free market!! You fucking commies... Also, who needs a police force? In a true capitalist world everything works out in the end

Seriously now... Copy Spain!

 

[Kovac]

You guys really need to put a Government in place that doesn't hate you.

Time for a revolution perhaps?

 

[North_Ranger]

*writes something snarky... thinks about it... erases it*

What?

 

[Mr_Chaz]

I have this enormous sense of wellbeing right now. I think it comes from having healthcare that's free to all at the point of use. Good isn't it North Ranger?

 

[Covar]

You guys really need to put a Government in place that doesn't hate you.

Time for a revolution perhaps?

unfortunately our government doesn't hate us. thats part of the problem. the country is run by retards trying to do what's "best" for us.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

As I posted in the fears thread, I'm legitimately terrified of having a disease.

 

[Singularity.EXE]

It just boggles my mind how a majority of the American people's want shit like this, or marijuana legalization, or a dozen other reforms and the government won't budge on it? Hello? Isn't this supposed to be a "people's choice" style of government? Or did I misunderstand something?

 

[Armadillo]

It just boggles my mind how a majority of the American people's want poop like this, or marijuana legalization, or a dozen other reforms and the government won't budge on it? Hello? Isn't this supposed to be a "people's choice" style of government? Or did I misunderstand something?

Single-payer health care isn't a very popular idea in the States, actually. The fear is that once a system like that comes into place, then people will no longer have control over what doctor they go to, what type of insurance they want to have, or what kind of treatment they'll receive if they get sick. From everything I've read about this, those fears are pretty well-founded.

The current system is far from ideal, and some level of reform (tort reform, not using insurance for EVERY LITTLE THING) needs to happen, but the answer is not to replace a flawed system with an even more flawed system that affords fewer freedoms to the citizenry.

Here's something that's bothered me since the beginning of this debate: the unemployment rate in the U.S. is approaching 10%, and we're discussing a proposal that would put hundreds of thousands of people who work for health insurance companies out of work within a few years? Is that really a wise path to go down? Also, if we've determined that health care is a basic human right that shouldn't be trusted to those worthless profiteers in the private sector, couldn't it then be argued that food, clothing, and shelter are also basic human rights that shouldn't be trusted to worthless profiteers like Cargill, Kraft, GAP, or Edina Realty? Should they be forced out of business in favor of single-payer food, clothing, and housing distribution overseen by the feds?

 

[MindDetective]

It just boggles my mind how a majority of the American people's want poop like this, or marijuana legalization, or a dozen other reforms and the government won't budge on it? Hello? Isn't this supposed to be a "people's choice" style of government? Or did I misunderstand something?

And not everyone wants the same thing.

 

[Covar]

Just realized. 10% of Americans are Unemployed. 15% of Americans are without health insurance. Of course the Unemployment figure is only based on the workforce (those who are seeking or have a job). Still its interesting.

 

[Jay]

*you notice a Canadian sitting comfortable in a chair in the corner, partially hidden in the shadows eating popcorn*

 

[Armadillo]

Just realized. 10% of Americans are Unemployed. 15% of Americans are without health insurance. Of course the Unemployment figure is only based on the workforce (those who are seeking or have a job). Still its interesting.

To kind of riff on this point: what's the breakdown of those 45 million people? How many are eligible for insurance, but don't get it by their own choice? How many of those 45 million are illegal immigrants? In other words, WHY are they uninsured? That's pretty important to know before using that fact to justify blowing up the entire system, I'd say.

 

[Covar]

Just realized. 10% of Americans are Unemployed. 15% of Americans are without health insurance. Of course the Unemployment figure is only based on the workforce (those who are seeking or have a job). Still its interesting.

To kind of riff on this point: what's the breakdown of those 45 million people? How many are eligible for insurance, but don't get it by their own choice? How many of those 45 million are illegal immigrants? In other words, WHY are they uninsured? That's pretty important to know before using that fact to justify blowing up the entire system, I'd say.

I know at least one. I've been elibible for Tricare for a while now, but was holding off due to it being a large part of my then incredibly small income (hurray for being a student). Now It wouldn't be so bad, but I want to wait, because if a single payer system is coming I don't want to get ass raped with essentially two insurance bills.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Single-payer health care isn't a very popular idea in the States, actually. The fear is that once a system like that comes into place, then people will no longer have control over what doctor they go to, what type of insurance they want to have, or what kind of treatment they'll receive if they get sick. From everything I've read about this, those fears are pretty well-founded.

Yeah, they're pretty well-founded until you actually look at countries which use single payer systems and see that this is not the case at all. I'm not prepared or particularly inclined to get into an argument about single-payer systems, mind you, but those fears are pretty much ridiculous.

The current system is far from ideal, and some level of reform (tort reform, not using insurance for EVERY LITTLE THING) needs to happen, but the answer is not to replace a flawed system with an even more flawed system that affords fewer freedoms to the citizenry.

What do you mean by "using insurance for EVERY LITTLE THING?" Like, preventative care?

Here's something that's bothered me since the beginning of this debate: the unemployment rate in the U.S. is approaching 10%, and we're discussing a proposal that would put hundreds of thousands of people who work for health insurance companies out of work within a few years? Is that really a wise path to go down? Also, if we've determined that health care is a basic human right that shouldn't be trusted to those worthless profiteers in the private sector, couldn't it then be argued that food, clothing, and shelter are also basic human rights that shouldn't be trusted to worthless profiteers like Cargill, Kraft, GAP, or Edina Realty? Should they be forced out of business in favor of single-payer food, clothing, and housing distribution overseen by the feds?

I don't know, and while the argument can be made that those things should be basic human rights, none of those things represent the single greatest source of debt in the country by a wide margin, nor are we extremely far behind the rest of the developed world in terms of how much we pay for things like food, clothing, and housing.

 

[blotsfan]

Government-run health care is theft. Lets say a doctor charges $1000 for surgery. The government decides it only wants to pay 300 dollars for it. Doctor is fucked. In fact, the government already runs some health care, and thats exactly what it does. The fact that that isn't the norm is why all the good foreign doctors come to America.
However, this "mandatory buy" plan is also idiotic. We should leave stuff the way it is.

 

[@Li3n]

Yeah, they're pretty well-founded until you actually look at countries which use single payer systems and see that this is not the case at all.

That's only cause communism collapsed during the early 90's...

Government-run health care is theft. Lets say a doctor charges $1000 for surgery. The government decides it only wants to pay 300 dollars for it. Doctor is fucked.

Who exactly tells him teh surgery is worth 1000$?!

 

[Mr_Chaz]

Government-run health care is theft. Lets say a doctor charges $1000 for surgery. The government decides it only wants to pay 300 dollars for it. Doctor is fucked. In fact, the government already runs some health care, and thats exactly what it does. The fact that that isn't the norm is why all the good foreign doctors come to America.
However, this "mandatory buy" plan is also idiotic. We should leave stuff the way it is.

Maybe the doctor shouldn't be charging $1000 for it if people aren't willing to pay it? For such strong proponents of supply and demand that seems a bit of a flaw