MRA's will never satisfy their lust for identifying mysandry

Necronic

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#1
MRA stuff seems to be all the rage now in geekdom, and it's an interesting and controversial enough topic that I think it's worth throwing the beehive grenade that it is on the ground here and seeing what happens.

I'm not going to state my position on it just yet, because I am lazy. Curious to hear other peoples views/thoughts.
 
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#3
[charlie]

MRAs are ridiculous by definition. Men already have all the rights and dictate what rights others have.

[/charlie]

Ok, so I'm only half joking...

Change is hard, and change that takes power from a group that has held it (in any dimension, be it politics, religion, hell, even the playground) for extended periods of time will naturally result in a violent reaction against it.

As I've said before, eventually gaming will become spread more widely to minority populations and change will happen because video game producers want money and alienating the people buying their games isn't the best strategy. EA being the obvious exception... they do what they want.
 

Dave

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#4
Again, both sides (MRA/Feminists) have fringe dipshits who are shaping the conversation. The vast majority of people are in the middle having no issues at all.
 

Necronic

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#8
Ok, so I'm only half joking...

Change is hard, and change that takes power from a group that has held it (in any dimension, be it politics, religion, hell, even the playground) for extended periods of time will naturally result in a violent reaction against it.
This is very similar to my views on it. Men are absolutely losing power, that is hard to deny. The problem is that this is not creating an imbalance, which would justify a Men's Rights movement to curtail it, instead the loss of power is about removing an imbalance. It can be hard to appreciate that, however, when you are that had priveleges that you are now losing.

There is another side to the MRA movement that I believe has more credence, and that has to do with demolishing traditional male stereotypes. The older view of "all girls like pink princesses and unicorns and are delicate flowers" has been properly demolished in the last few decades by feminism, however the male counterpart of that view, "all boys like sports and don't cry and are aggressive/assertive" is still pretty common, and I think there's problems with that.

However, this is also where MRA stuff loses the thread for me, because they espouse the value of demolishing gender identity alongside commentaries about the effemitization of the male identity by modern society. I don't see how both arguments can exist.

I have to admit that I have real problems with stereotypes myself. I am definitely one to say "man up". But it's a bit more nuanced. I have a VERY hard time with people who make excuses for their failures, and sometimes I see that in the MRA conversations. Like all the bad things that ever happened to them were caused by the loss of power men are experiencing. I don't accept this and find it to be indicative of a deeply flawed individual.
 

figmentPez

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#9
There is another side to the MRA movement that I believe has more credence, and that has to do with demolishing traditional male stereotypes. The older view of "all girls like pink princesses and unicorns and are delicate flowers" has been properly demolished in the last few decades by feminism, however the male counterpart of that view, "all boys like sports and don't cry and are aggressive/assertive" is still pretty common, and I think there's problems with that.
This. While it's true that men don't need many "rights" they don't already have (and those they lack are also needed by other groups as well), men are still in need of advocates. The issues that men face, and men do have struggles, are different than those that women face. This doesn't necessarily mean that men need their own movement, but we can't just assume that all men are fine because some men are privileged.

For instance: men need advocates to promote expanding legal definitions of rape, so that all rape victims can be recognized and aided. Ideally this would come out of the feminism movement, (though, in an ideal world feminism wouldn't even be necessary, because everyone would already be equal). In reality, feminism is divided because people don't work well together, and shit like this comes from "feminism" as well: Feminist group in Israel wants to repeal laws allowing women to be charged with raping men.
 

GasBandit

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#10
I chart pretty close to FigmentPez on this issue. Most people who identify themselves explicitly as MRAs are, as a rule, fairly ridiculous, but that doesn't mean that there aren't injustices perpetrated against men simply motivated by them being men.

As for feminism, as others have said, there's feminism and then there's feminism. I'm all for equality. Retribution/reverse discrimination, not so much.
 
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#12
The way I see it, the major cause of "man problems" is perpetrated [edit: and perpetuated] by men on other men, mostly by men who think men should be (able to) behave in a particular manner and who get upset that (other) men don't behave this way.
Also, as an aside, I have a problem with the term "feminist" since it by definition intimates a preference for one gender over another (rather than an elevation towards equality).
Also, there's that quote attributed to Henry Kissinger - "Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There’s too much fraternizing with the enemy"
I would like to state that nobody actually needs to "win" that battle. A truce should be sufficient for all needs.

--Patrick
 
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#13
(Computer is dead, doing this from the kindle) but other than divorce courts and custody of kids what is their big `help, help, I'm being oppressed` angle
 
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#14
Divorce and custody are the biggest MRA issues that I can agree with.

Then again, I got custody in my second divorce. In Texas. So there are some strides being made there.
 

Dave

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#15
I would say that and the asinine idea that all men are rapists and pedophiles. Like men being told they can't be elementary school teachers or questioned while in a public park by themselves or even with their own kids. Or when you are sitting in a plane and an unaccompanied child has a seat next to you they make you change like you are some sort of a pervert.
 

Cajungal

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#16
I do feel bad that men are treated like they can't be trusted with children. Even fathers. My mom is guilty of this. My dad isn't overprotective and let's his grand kids play without him hovering over them. My mom doesn't like leaving him alone with them even though he takes good care of them. That's less of a men-are- pedophiles observation and more based on the idea that men can't be nurturing or know what children need.
 
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#17
Story time!

Once upon a time, I was a summer camp councilor. I was a GOOD summer camp councilor. I was usually given cabins with troubled kids because I was patient with them and because of my somewhat troubled past was able to relate to them on a level that the middle class councilors probably never could.

Then, one summer, I came out of the closet and the camp director tried to have me fired because he was afraid I would molest the kids.

I haven't felt comfortable around children ever since. Not even my nieces and nephews or friend's children.
 
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#18
Story time!

Once upon a time, I was a summer camp councilor. I was a GOOD summer camp councilor. I was usually given cabins with troubled kids because I was patient with them and because of my somewhat troubled past was able to relate to them on a level that the middle class councilors probably never could.

Then, one summer, I came out of the closet and the camp director tried to have me fired because he was afraid I would molest the kids.

I haven't felt comfortable around children ever since. Not even my nieces and nephews or friend's children.
That really sucks, and happens far too often.
 

Cajungal

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#19
See...that really sucks. I saw the same kind of discomfort from parents and some teachers when we had a gay music teacher.
 
#20
Feminists/SJWs are totally completely for tearing down gender roles on both sides. I got shit for liking Dawson's Creek when I was a teenager. That stuff about men and kids is bullshit. Women also don't like being assumed to be caretakers/loving kids all the time, either.
 

figmentPez

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#21
Feminists/SJWs are totally completely for tearing down gender roles on both sides.
A generalization that does not hold true for all individuals. There are "feminists" who are happy to promote gender roles if it furthers their personal agenda. There are even groups that actively promote negative stereotypes about men because they think it will help the cause of women. This is a problem that can be found within any movment; a minority, sometimes quite vocally, can act like assholes and go against some sub-set of the movement's beliefs.

Moreover, being for the general concept of "tearing down gender roles" doesn't mean shit unless you're focusing on specific issues that need change. Its a repeated feminist statement that it's not enough to simply be for equality between the genders, because our perception of "equal" is so skewed by a male-centered society. For instance, we're so used to seeing crowd scenes in movies with a majority of men in them, that even in real life a 50/50 split tends to make people think there are more women present in a group. It's a problem of ingrained bias. Unless we specifically examine issues and point out why our preconceptions have led to flawed reasoning, then it will be difficult to get people to even see the problem at all.

That stuff about men and kids is bullshit.
Charlie, just shut up before you make a bigger fool of yourself. It took a lawsuit against British Airways to get them to change their policy of treating single men as presumed pedophiles. There are still people in advocacy groups who want to justify treating all men as potential molestors because they "know the overwhelming majority of sex offenders are male, so by removing that situation you're lowering the risk." Source

Women also don't like being assumed to be caretakers/loving kids all the time, either.
That does not in any way stop negative stereotypes from harming men. Nor does it necessarily follow that changing that stereotype about women will lead to a change in the stereotype about men as well.

Also, I have to laugh. This is like saying "That stuff about women being presumed to be physically weak is bullshit. Men also don't like being assumed to be strong all the time, either." Just stop and think for a moment. You know you would be in a frothing rage at anyone who used that type of reasoning.
 
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#22
The stuff with men and kids is completely true. When I was doing my teaching practicum in a grade 1/kindergarten combination class, the teacher would allow kids to sit in her lap, hug them, or hold them. Meanwhile, it was generally frowned upon or suggested I don't do the same. Honestly, given my own fears of being falsely accused of anything, I kept my distance. I asked her once why this was and she said very frankly that it was a gender thing. She's not the first person I've heard from about this, either.
 
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#24
Wait, no, the stuff = when people assume men are not good with children. Those assumptions / stereotypes are bullshit. We're on the same side.
"Assume men are not good with children" appears to be a rather odd way of phrasing what the other guys are describing.
 
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#25
Wow, guys, calm down. Charlie actually made a good post and you're dumping on him.

You should reward positive behavior, not punish it.
 
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#26
Wow, guys, calm down. Charlie actually made a good post and you're dumping on him.

You should reward positive behavior, not punish it.
Not my intention to dump on Charlie at all, I recognize he's raising good points in here. It's just that I found it very incongruous to be referring to the assumption that all men are potential pedophiles as "assume men are not good with children."

Or did I misread Charlie's post? If so, I apologize unreservedly.
 
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#27
He means that the stereotypes about nurturing are bullshit in the sense that they're not true. Not that its bullshit to think that they exist.
 

GasBandit

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#30
I don't know what it is, these days parents don't even let their kids play in the front yard unless they have guard towers at the corners with snipers. My best friend's wife (the one who won't let him play video games any more incidentally) is terrified their 5 year old is going to get kidnapped by a pedophile if she's out of her sight for 15 seconds, 5 if the little girl happens to be outside. You know where I went to play when I was 5? The woods. Down the street. All day. By myself (or with other similarly aged friends, no adults in any case). Assuming I wasn't straight up playing in the street.
 
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#33
This is how I read it.
Same here.

And correct advocacy of feminism is also about tearing down those gender roles for everybody. To do otherwise would say that a woman who assumes a stereotypically male attitude, career, etc, is just acting like a man. That's assuming the worst, of course; correct feminism advocates equality for everyone. Women in pants, women in dresses, men in pants, men in dresses--and all of them having useful pocket depths, because I didn't know that about women's pants until recently and those shallow pockets are fucking stupid.

I don't know what it is, these days parents don't even let their kids play in the front yard unless they have guard towers at the corners with snipers. My best friend's wife (the one who won't let him play video games any more incidentally) is terrified their 5 year old is going to get kidnapped by a pedophile if she's out of her sight for 15 seconds, 5 if the little girl happens to be outside. You know where I went to play when I was 5? The woods. Down the street. All day. By myself (or with other similarly aged friends, no adults in any case). Assuming I wasn't straight up playing in the street.
I blame the 24-hour news media for this. I remember being 4 and playing in my front yard in the snow at dusk. My mom couldn't watch be 100%, she had my little sister and little brother to take care of too, so I was on my own and it was okay. I'm sure she glanced out the window now and then. Dad came home from his first job, I followed him in.

I dislike romanticism of previous decades, but the 80s really did seem like a simpler time. Then again, I was still 4 when it ended, so everything was simpler. Even dinosaurs.[DOUBLEPOST=1414851893,1414851738][/DOUBLEPOST]
And how were we supposed to know that before he clarified?
I understood before he clarified.

'Cause I'm cool. :cool:
 
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#35
Have a disagree, assface :p[DOUBLEPOST=1414852553,1414852333][/DOUBLEPOST]It's been fun watching Fig's transformation from a white knight to a borderline misogynist.

(preemptively unwad your panties, I'm kidding)
 
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