[News] Israel will never satisfy its lust for dead women and children

PLO shoots three missiles into Israel. Nobody says anything.
Syria shoots three missiles into Israel. Nobody says anything.
Hamas shoots three missiles into Israel. Nobody says anything.
Israel shoots one missile into Gaza - and the entire freakin' world goes ape####.
 
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Israel shoots one missile into Gaza - and the entire freakin' world goes ape####.
also you're completely and utterly ignoring the facts and/or obviously haven't read one word about what's going on -

Israeli military spokesman Lt Col Peter Lerner confirmed on Thursday that Israel had struck more than 320 Hamas targets overnight, bringing the total number of targets hit to more than 750 in three days.
 
Charlie, what YOU aren't getting is that Israel is getting attacked like downtown Chicago.

If your answer is that the Chicago PD should just sit there and do nothing, you're closer in stature to that idiot who shot up his entire ex-in-law's family in your hometown than to a decent human being.

/disengage_thread
 
Charlie, what YOU aren't getting is that Israel is getting attacked like downtown Chicago.

If your answer is that the Chicago PD should just sit there and do nothing, you're closer in stature to that idiot who shot up his entire ex-in-law's family in your hometown than to a decent human being.

/disengage_thread
There's a huge fucking gulf between "nothing at all" and a thousand top-of-the-line million dollar missiles. I could give two fucks if you think I'm a decent human being while you gloss over dozens of women and children being slaughtered. If you want to make shitty analogies, if someone smacks your foot with a whiffleball bat, do you empty a magnum into their face?
 
And in any case, you can construct a cause and effect chain that goes way further back than that.
Israel attacks because they were attacked
Palestine attacks because they were attacked, children were killed
Israel attacks because they were attacked, palestinians are terrorists and cowards
(this a few times)
Palestine attacks because they've had a fucking Iron Curtain built
Israel attacks because they've been attacked
Palestine attacks because they are [at least consider themselves to be] oppressed
Israel attacks because their settlers were attacked
Palestine attacks because they've had more and more of their territory occupied by settlers
Repeat a few times, at some points it's 'Palestine' and at some points it's 'Palestinian groups' (as you go back in time, and palestinians weren't as fucked, terrorists had less and less support, enought to not be identified with the Palestinian 'nation').
So it's unfair to say 'Israel attacks because they were attacked'. Because the attacks didn't come out of the blue.

The fact is that this is a war, and most of the powerful world sides with the powerful, winning side (Israel). It's hard to assess the righteousness of either side, but CLEARLY Palestinians have it harder.
 
The only reason the Palestinian rockets don't kill anyone is because the Israelis try to keep their citizens alive. Unlike the Palestinians who want dead kids for PR purposes.
 
The only reason the Palestinian rockets don't kill anyone is because the Israelis try to keep their citizens alive. Unlike the Palestinians who want dead kids for PR purposes.
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The only reason the Palestinian rockets don't kill anyone is because the Israelis try to keep their citizens alive. Unlike the Palestinians who want dead kids for PR purposes.
everybody read this post really slowly out loud to yourself.
 
Because as you know, Hamas totally doesn't have the killing of all Jews west of the Jordan river in their constitution. (It does)

And also, their "peace" plan completely doesn't include a clause that would let most (all?) of their population overrun current Israeli territory, making it an arab state by demographics. ("Right to return")

And they really don't drive ambulances around in front of media whenever they can, not actually picking up and treating people. That would be inhumane! (This happens all the time)

And of course it's complete lies that Hamas surrounds their most important locations with women and children for more casualties. That's completely unbelievable! (Proven over and over)


Sarcasm mode off now, if Israel disarmed, they would be overrun and slaughtered. If Hamas (and co.) disarmed, there would be peace.
 
Sarcasm mode off now, if Israel disarmed, they would be overrun and slaughtered. If Hamas (and co.) disarmed, there would be peace.

I'm no expert but I don't think the second part of that is true. Well, I guess it's true for a value of 'peace', but this conflict goes beyond the missiles. There's border issues, there's government of Palestine issues, etc.

As I said, Palestine wasn't always governed by the terrorist organizations (even if government had ties to terrorists). Even then, Israel refused to negotiate many times and powerful factions in israel kept pressing for more settlements, more territories inside Palestine, and a harsh military behaviour against Palestine. We can't ignore the responsibility of Israel in the rise to power of Hamas.[DOUBLEPOST=1405089159,1405088637][/DOUBLEPOST]I was thinking... Actually, there would NOT be peace because the objective of some of those 'powerful factions' is to totally populate the region i.e. settle all over Palestine, isn't it?
 
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I won't pretend that Israel is some shining beacon of all is right in the world (they aren't), but I gotta agree with others Charlie, it's way more complicated than you are making it out to be. Should Israel react in the violent way they do? That is a very debatable subject. Do they need to react that way? That is also a very debatable subject. But it's not entirely fair to just say they are the "bad guys" here.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I think anyone with even a small amount of common sense can see that Israel has some... issues, but the overall problem of peace is so much more complicated than just one side giving in to the other at this point. Honestly, it's probably beyond resolution until someone blows the other off the map. I think thats terribly sad, but you aren't dealing with people on either side who value human life more than their states/political/national/whatever rights IMO.
 
The optimal graph above would have zero dead Israelis and zero dead Palestinians.
That will only occur after Palestine is re-established according to how Hamas sees that happening. Because everybody Jewish will be DEAD. Until Hamas' charter changes, that's what will happen.
 
Also, how come Israel wants the dead kids when they prosecute the Israelis that intentionally kill Palestinian children while Hamas supports the Palestinians who intentionally kill Israeli ones?
 
That will only occur after Palestine is re-established according to how Hamas sees that happening. Because everybody Jewish will be DEAD. Until Hamas' charter changes, that's what will happen.
Yeah, I mean, all terrorism problems end either with the terrorists winning or with all of them dead or in prison.
 
You can search every word in this thread, and I don't think you'll find one praising Hamas or saying they're good people. Your argument is that Israel can't be bad because Hamas is bad, I don't know the fancy latin, but that's bullshit?
 
Ideally, you should have no trouble convincing anyone of this...unless they are Israeli or Palestinian, of course.

--Patrick
And that seems to be the issue. Two political extremes who want to either wipe out, destroy or force submission upon the other. There's no simple answer other than either side getting exactly what it wants. And thats no solution.
 
And that seems to be the issue. Two political extremes who want to either wipe out, destroy or force submission upon the other. There's no simple answer other than either side getting exactly what it wants. And thats no solution.
I'm pretty sure you just described Congress.
 
You can search every word in this thread, and I don't think you'll find one praising Hamas or saying they're good people. Your argument is that Israel can't be bad because Hamas is bad, I don't know the fancy latin, but that's bullshit?
Hamas has it in its charter that their struggle is between Islam and Judaism. And to kill every Jew in what they consider their territory, and that giving up even a piece of it is renouncing Islam. (That's even without searching hard)

I'm not saying Israel is "Good" with a capital "G", but only that at looking at two entities in this struggle, as long as Hamas has supporters, there will never be peace.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Israel is our only true, unswerving ally in the region, and it's in our best interest to keep them alive and armed to the teeth. The palestinians are deliberately provoking them to try and gin up monetary support from liberal sympathizers, as their income has been on the decline for the last six or eight years. Hundreds of rockets have been fired into Israel from residential areas in Gaza in the last week. That they haven't been effective isn't particularly relevant. And really, the true blame for the continued plight of the palestinians largely rests with their arab neighbors who refused to take them in because they are desirous of a permanent "victim" card to play against Israel.


And, as others have said...

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And that seems to be the issue. Two political extremes who want to either wipe out, destroy or force submission upon the other. There's no simple answer other than either side getting exactly what it wants. And thats no solution.
Not to mention the last time there was a big sit down, everything that palestine demanded was granted them in the final document, and Arafat still refused to sign it because it would remove their casus belli.

Palestine doesn't want peace, palestine has demonstrated repeatedly it wants to destroy Israel.
 

Necronic

Staff member
If Isreal could even remotely pretend control their illegal settlers then I would be a lot more willing to defend them.[DOUBLEPOST=1405113093,1405112994][/DOUBLEPOST]
Israel is our only true, unswerving ally in the region, and it's in our best interest to keep them alive and armed to the teeth. .
Iraq was a pretty important ally once as well. Not saying it's the same but we can't excuse the actions of our allies out of fear of offending them. In fact its the exact opposite, if they want us to keep supporting them as allies they need to stop the settlements.[DOUBLEPOST=1405113302][/DOUBLEPOST]It's a borderline privateer system currently.
 

Necronic

Staff member
Also, how come Israel wants the dead kids when they prosecute the Israelis that intentionally kill Palestinian children while Hamas supports the Palestinians who intentionally kill Israeli ones?
Yeah, not so sure about this. Israel has a pretty strong history of barely prosecuting settlers. Sure, if there's some really obvious murder then they will go after it, but they don't really do much to protect the Palestinians. I don't think people really understand how nasty the issue with settlers is.[DOUBLEPOST=1405113856,1405113678][/DOUBLEPOST]
Even that editorial says that half of the settlements are considered illegal by the Israeli government. Even if you are willing to excuse the "legal" settlements, there is no excuse for the wildcat settlements, and Israels tacit approval of them.[DOUBLEPOST=1405113971][/DOUBLEPOST]And don't get me wrong. I have nothing against occupation really. It's the settlements that are messed up.[DOUBLEPOST=1405114048][/DOUBLEPOST]As someone who is big on property rights I am really surprised to see you backing the settlements.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
As someone who is big on property rights I am really surprised to see you backing the settlements.
As far as I know, the settlements aren't displacing anyone, it's just that they're where a non-sovereign nation says they can't be. It's not a property rights issue unless the land is actually someone's property.
 

Necronic

Staff member
Property gets pretty confusing in that area, no doubt. But there are people losing farms and grazing lands that their families have worked for generations. Short of a good property management bureaucracy like you would find in the US I would consider that a viable claim to their land.
 

Necronic

Staff member
So since they are without a nation they effectively have no rights to property? I mean, that's the Israeli line I guess. Just sounds ridiculous to me.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
By who's definition? Does the "non sovereign" nation agree with that assessment?

I jus think that's a rather facile and conveniently one sided argument.
Palestine is a de facto client state of ever decreasing legitimacy. Do your kids agree with everything you decide for them?

In my mind, Palestine ceased to legitimately exist as a negotiable entity when they walked away from the aforementioned peace negotiation when their every demand was met simply because it allowed Israel to exist in any way, with not even so much as a counter proposal.

Sympathizing with Palestine is like saying cancer has a right to live, too.
 
Also, if people truly cared about the Palestinians, they'd be encouraging Israel to take over the land since then they'd be in a state where there is freedom of speech and freedom of religion as opposed to another repressive muslim theocracy.
 
My wife is starting a podcast called Internet Fight Night. I think this thread would be perfect for an episode.
 
Israel does not have freedom of religion. They allow citizens freedom to worship according to their religion, and practice their religion where it doesn't conflict with law. But there are many religious practices that are disallowed, for instance proselytizing. Further, it does have a state religion, and much of society and it's laws adhere to that religion to one degree or another, forcing the rest of society into the same paths already set forth in that religion.

As far as integration of Palestine and it's people, neither side would accept it. The Israelis would not want their government changed by people not of their faith, they strictly limit non-Jewish immigration in order to avoid this sort of situation.
Even with those faults, is it worse than "if you're not muslim we want you dead"? There are plenty of Arabs in Israel that are part of normal society. Yes, the hardcore conservative Jews cause some shitty stuff to be allowed, but to call Israel one of the worst countries in the world like Charlie has done is absurd.

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everybody read this post really slowly out loud to yourself.
Nope. The Palestinians don't encourage civilians to get hit by missiles. Not at all...

Also, if Israel wants to kill women and children, giving them advance notice of where the missiles will fire seems a tad bit counter-intuitive.
 
Here's my core issue. The right wing of the Israel Military Industrial Complex (brought to you by your US Tax Dollars) and Hamas are probably equally bloodthirsty, but only one of those sides has access to nukes and infinite cruise missiles and fighter jets.
 
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