[MLB] Hall of Fame voting

[Null]

So, technically Jorge Posada is a free agent now, but I have a feeling he's essentially retired (or should be). This brings his legacy as a player into perspective, and raises some questions about Hall of Fame voting. Now, on the surface of it, Posada doesn't have any of the "magic numbers" that automatically earn you a spot in the HoF - 500 HR, 3000 Hits, .300 career average, etc. But on the other hand, he's also got a fair share of awards - 5 time All-Star and 5 time Silver Slugger, 4 time World Series Champion. Posada's also the only Major League catcher to hit .330 or better with 40 doubles, 20 homers, and 90 RBIs in a single season. Since 2000, he has more RBIs, homers, and hits than any other MLB catcher.

Given all that, would you vote for Jorge Posada for the Hall of Fame?

 

[sixpackshaker]

Not voting yet, but catching is so much more than the numbers.

How good were his pitchers?
How much better did he make mediocre pitchers?
Did he have an arm that made base-stealers too scared to even try to go for second?
How often did a manager put him in outfield to keep his intangibles on the field, while resting the catcher's knees? (Especially true of Yogi Bera)

Personally the Championships, and All-Star Ballots should weigh heavily on the HOF vote.

 

[Null]

Not voting yet, but catching is so much more than the numbers.

How good were his pitchers?
How much better did he make mediocre pitchers?
Did he have an arm that made base-stealers too scared to even try to go for second?
How often did a manager put him in outfield to keep his intangibles on the field, while resting the catcher's knees? (Especially true of Yogi Bera)

Personally the Championships, and All-Star Ballots should weigh heavily on the HOF vote.

Well, there were excellent pitchers in the rotation most of the time, and he caught David Wells perfect game in 1998. Not sure if he improved mediocre pitchers, honestly. I know for a time he had a very good rate of catching baserunners stealing, though that tapered off with age and with pitchers that couldn't catch a baserunner with a police chopper and pack of bloodhounds (I'm looking at you, AJ Burnett). Career fielding stats, 1575 games catching with 10018 put outs in 10803 chances, 695 assists, 90 errors, 79 double plays; 896 stolen bases and 345 caught stealing. Career fielding percentage: .992

 

[Tress]

I'm not a big fan of the idea voting purely on milestones. Hall of Fame votes should be for players who represent the best of their times. He was one of those best, and he should get in because of that. If someone is going to argue against that, fine. Just don't claim he should be held out because he didn't reach an arbitrary mark.

 

[jwhouk]

No.

Jorge's an okay player, but he really doesn't do very well on the Keltner list. You could make the same arguments for him as you would for Gil Hodges, but when you look at it, he just doesn't have any numbers that would say "I'm a Hall of Famer."

It also doesn't help that there's the "No More Yankees" bias in the BBWAA voting, either.

I'll predict that in the 2016 balloting, he will get about 20% of the vote - and not much more.

EDIT: The Keltner List, for those of you wondering what I meant.

 

[Null]

Well, Posada was among the best catchers in the league for about a decade (1998-2008), and several of his numbers (home runs, RBIs, hits, OBP, Slugging) compare to other hall of fame catchers. I don't know about that list; there have been a number of players who are hyped as being "the best" that don't last - I'm looking at you, Manny Ramirez - and a lot of great players who go under the radar.

To specifically compare Jorge to Hall of Fame catchers:

HR 275 - ahead of Roy Campanella, Gabby Hartnett, Bill Dickey
RBI 1065 (tied for 225th all time) - ahead of Ernie Lombardi
OBP .374 - ahead of Ernie Lombardi, Gabby Hartnett
Slugging .474 - ahead of Ernie Lombardi, Carlton Fisk, Buck Ewing (.002 behind Johnny Bench)
OPS .848 - ahead of Yogi Berra, Ernie Lombardi, Johnny Bench, Buck Ewing, Carlton Fisk
Doubles 379 - ahead of Gary Carter, Bill Dickey, Mickey Cochrane, Rick Ferrell, and Yogi Berra
Total Bases 2888 - ahead of Yogi Berra

He also lead the league three times in putouts as a catcher.

 

[jwhouk]

The "We can make a list" argument. You can do that a lot, but it won't put him in the Hall.

Here's my thought: if Bernie Williams gets selected to the HOF, Posada will join him a few years later. Unfortunately, I don't think Bernie will be getting into the Hall anytime soon, either. (Prediction: he will get at most 25% of the vote this year, his first on the ballot.)

 

[Null]

"We can make a list"? I'm comparing apples to apples - his number against Hall of Famers at his position. If he's ahead of numerous people who made the Hall of Fame, doesn't that make him a good candidate?

 

[Covar]

You're questioning the logic of the Baseball Writers Association of America? Waste of time.

 

[jwhouk]

They are predictable, though. And Jorge didn't get much love in the MVP voting during his career.

I stand by my prediction: 20-25% on the first ballot, and probably not much more.

 

[Null]

They are predictable, though. And Jorge didn't get much love in the MVP voting during his career.

I stand by my prediction: 20-25% on the first ballot, and probably not much more.

Placing 3rd in MVP voting in 2003, and 6th in 2007 I believe.

 

[jwhouk]

Over a 17 year career. That's the equivalent of a 0.78 award share (49% + 28% of the vote = 0.78 awards).

Meanwhile: #8 the first had an award share of 2.02 over a 17 year career. Granted, there are nearly twice as many teams now as there were then, but he was on the ballot nine times to Jorge's two.

And #8 the second had a 3.98 award share (and three AL MVP awards) over a 19-year career. He received at least one vote in 15 different seasons.

What about #15? In 11 years, he had a 1.50 award share - and the 1976 AL MVP award.

Sorry, but if you're going to elect a Yankee catcher to the HOF, you need to put Munson in first. And he never got more than 15.5% of the vote after he passed away.