[MLB] Derek Jeter to retire after 2014 season.
- Thread starter Covar
- Start date
yeah jeets, yeah jeets
It stinks that the old man of baseball is 5 years younger than I am.
On one hand, I'm really sad to lose Jeter. He's been a part of my Yankees experience since I was a teen. It's going to feel odd next time I go to a game and he's not there. I would like to see him go out on top for his last season, but given recent performance, I'm not sure the Yankees can pull it off.
On the other hand, he's probably getting paid way too much for his limited abilities in recent years. Yes, his name draws an audience and he's not a complete disgrace (looking at you, A-Rod), but he's getting injured more easily now. When your body says, "I've had enough", you have to listen. He probably should have considered it sooner, but I could also see him not wanted to take away from Mo's moment.
On the other hand, he's probably getting paid way too much for his limited abilities in recent years. Yes, his name draws an audience and he's not a complete disgrace (looking at you, A-Rod), but he's getting injured more easily now. When your body says, "I've had enough", you have to listen. He probably should have considered it sooner, but I could also see him not wanted to take away from Mo's moment.
He's getting paid for the performance he had before the contract was signed.
But the Yankees Organization has never shied away from being "The Evil Empire". They are all about the money. Yes, it would have been a terrible PR move, because even with the injuries, Jeter has become synonymous with "Yankees" and it still pretty beloved. In recent years, I was sincerely worried they were going to take the PR hit over losing money. But again, I don't know how iron-clad his contract was, so letting him go might have cost them more than keeping him. I don't think they did it over warm-fuzzy sentimentality, I think they did it for the bottom line.
But Jeet wearing anything except pinstripes would have broken my heart. He's not my favorite Yankee, but to me he's the quintessential modern Yankee.
But Jeet wearing anything except pinstripes would have broken my heart. He's not my favorite Yankee, but to me he's the quintessential modern Yankee.
It depends if the "Sports Writers" are still pissed about the Steroid Era.
As a person who couldn't care less if the Yankees win another game for the rest of their lives, even I would have to say that Jeter is another in the line of what *should* be unanimous HOF inductees.
However, as I said in the thread before, not gonna happen. Especially when you have other Yankee greats such as Ruth, Mantle, Dimaggio & Gehrig, all of whom were NOT unanimous selections either.
However, as I said in the thread before, not gonna happen. Especially when you have other Yankee greats such as Ruth, Mantle, Dimaggio & Gehrig, all of whom were NOT unanimous selections either.
I am still a bit shocked that Biggio is still getting passed over, just for playing during this era. A player that gets hit by over 250 pitches, and never charged the mound should have a golden ticket.
...really?!
WTF is wrong with the HOF people?!
(I know, I know, mentioned in the other thread, just ranting)
I want "yeah jeets" to be true so badly
And now his career is finally done. He didn't have a stellar final year but he wasn't an embarrassment either - he performed as well as many younger players (about the same as Brett Gardner, and only slightly worse then Jacoby Ellsbury), finishing 1 hit shy of another 150 hit season, which would have tied him with Ty Cobb.
The Keltner List: Derek Sanderson Jeter
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
This is the "Babe Ruth" argument. Jeter is not Babe Ruth. He played in the same park (kinda) as Ruth; he wore the jersey number one less than Ruth. But he is not Babe Ruth.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
The Yankees of the 1994-2001 era had so many good players on their team. However, the parts from their first championship team (1996) through to their last championship team (2009) contained only one player who was a regular starter on both teams: Jeter.
We won't bother with the video of game 3 of the 2001 ALDS against Oakland; it's been played repeatedly over the years.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
11 years ago, the New York Yankees acquired the best hitter in the American League – Alex Rodriguez – from the Texas Rangers. His regular position was shortstop.
He was shifted to third base, and would play a grand total of five more games in his career for the Yankees at shortstop – this after winning back-to-back gold gloves in 2002 and 2003.
Why?
The Yankees shortstop was Derek Jeter.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
158 games. 200 hits, 111 runs, 20 HR, 61 RBI, .308/.465/.374. There are guys who would kill for that stat line in a single season.
Those were Jeter's totals just in the post-season.
5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
See the 2013 and 2014 seasons for Jeter.
6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
The answer to this question is still "See Bonds, Barry." However, the list of players who are better than him are growing smaller every year.
7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?
Derek's top "similar score", according to baseball-reference.com, is Craig Biggio (825). He is similar to seven other HOF'ers in his top 10: Molitor, Yount, Alomar, Gehringer, Ripken, Morgan, and Eddie Collins. The other two – Ivan Rodriguez (700) and Johnny Damon (695) – are both decent HOF candidates.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame Standards?
Derek meets 67 percent of the Hall of Fame Standards, and scores a whopping 337 points on the Hall of Fame Monitor list. An average Hall of Famer would meet 50 percent of the Hall of Fame Standards (as presented by Bill James), and score a minimum of 100 points on the Hall of Fame Monitor list. His career WAR total is 71.8, which puts him 88th overall in MLB history. 76 of the players ahead of him are in the HOF; the ones that aren't are either active, ineligible, or have issues (see Bonds, Barry and Clemens, Roger).
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
Derek scores 10 on the Black Ink test, and 145 on the Gray Ink test. The latter is close to the average HOF'er (144). He played in Yankee Stadiums II and III (mostly in II), which floated between being a hitter's park and a pitcher's park during his career.
He also played those 158 post-season games – the equivalent of about an entire season's worth of games – over his career. There is some suggestion that this could have contributed to his decline in the last two years of his career (which were both years the Yankees didn't play in the post-season, the first since 2008 and the only time in his career he didn't make the post-season in two straight seasons).
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?
He is not yet eligible for the Hall of Fame. If Chipper Jones is selected before 2019, the question is a mortal lock yes.
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
He was the 1996 AL ROTY, the 2000 ASG and WS MVP. He has 2.77 Career Win Shares – his best finishes were third, both in 1998, where he had 180 votes behind Juan Gonzalez and Nomar Garciaparra; and in 2009 where he had 193 votes behind Joe Mauer and Mark Teixeira (his teammate with the Yankees). He also won five Gold Gloves and five more silver sluggers (all of them after A-Rod joined the Yankees, by the way).
12. How many All-Star type seasons did he have? How many All-Star Games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many go into the Hall of Fame?
Derek played in 14 All-Star games, being voted to start at shortstop 9 times, all for the AL. This is more than many players have ever had in their careers. In fact, it's more than Yount (3) and Alomar (12), and in the same ballpark as Ripken (19) – kinda.
13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
Heh. Ha ha hah… HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHHHAAAAAAAA…. (wheeze) Heh… okay, seriously… do you wanna look at how many World Series rings he has?
14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
I would argue one salient point: if he had been healthy and able to play in the 2002 All-Star Game, the American League might have actually won the game. And then we wouldn't have been forced to deal with the "This Time It Counts" crap for the last dozen seasons or so.
15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
There's been a lot of throwing around of the "Derek Jeter ideal" out there as of late. He kept his private life private – something he might have a lot of trouble doing once he is retired.
There is no belief that he may have been involved in PED's during his career – though it was smack-dab in the middle of such time, and he played right next to at least three high-profile players involved in PED scandals (Rodriguez, Giambi, Clemens).
If there is any player from past history that he is most similar to in demeanor, it would have to be Joe DiMaggio. The main difference, of course, is that DiMaggio was born in California. And, of course, Jeter only supposedly briefly dated Madonna, whereas Joe married Marilyn Monroe.
16. Is this player likely to make it to the Hall of Fame? Will he likely enter on the first ballot?
A lot can happen in the five years between retirement and enshrinement. Dirt could be uncovered – sex, drugs, his last "hit" was a "gimme", refusing to play in some ASG's – that could tarnish his body of work.
But consider this: he has five World Series rings, and has a post-season stat line that some players would kill to have in the regular season. And he was the reason the Yankees moved the best shortstop in the American League to third base. Oh, and let's not forget the diving catches, that ridiculous assist on a missed cutoff throw, and oh by the way, he was the first Yankee to collect 3,000 hits – all in pinstripes.
It would take a LOT to convince anyone he's not a slam-dunk, nearly-unanimous, first-ballot Hall of Famer.
Except for some Yankee haters, of course.
EDIT: And, of course, Charlie. Take it easy, Astro Boy; Biggio and Bagwell will get into the Hall eventually.
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
This is the "Babe Ruth" argument. Jeter is not Babe Ruth. He played in the same park (kinda) as Ruth; he wore the jersey number one less than Ruth. But he is not Babe Ruth.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
The Yankees of the 1994-2001 era had so many good players on their team. However, the parts from their first championship team (1996) through to their last championship team (2009) contained only one player who was a regular starter on both teams: Jeter.
We won't bother with the video of game 3 of the 2001 ALDS against Oakland; it's been played repeatedly over the years.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
11 years ago, the New York Yankees acquired the best hitter in the American League – Alex Rodriguez – from the Texas Rangers. His regular position was shortstop.
He was shifted to third base, and would play a grand total of five more games in his career for the Yankees at shortstop – this after winning back-to-back gold gloves in 2002 and 2003.
Why?
The Yankees shortstop was Derek Jeter.
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
158 games. 200 hits, 111 runs, 20 HR, 61 RBI, .308/.465/.374. There are guys who would kill for that stat line in a single season.
Those were Jeter's totals just in the post-season.
5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
See the 2013 and 2014 seasons for Jeter.
6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
The answer to this question is still "See Bonds, Barry." However, the list of players who are better than him are growing smaller every year.
7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?
Derek's top "similar score", according to baseball-reference.com, is Craig Biggio (825). He is similar to seven other HOF'ers in his top 10: Molitor, Yount, Alomar, Gehringer, Ripken, Morgan, and Eddie Collins. The other two – Ivan Rodriguez (700) and Johnny Damon (695) – are both decent HOF candidates.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame Standards?
Derek meets 67 percent of the Hall of Fame Standards, and scores a whopping 337 points on the Hall of Fame Monitor list. An average Hall of Famer would meet 50 percent of the Hall of Fame Standards (as presented by Bill James), and score a minimum of 100 points on the Hall of Fame Monitor list. His career WAR total is 71.8, which puts him 88th overall in MLB history. 76 of the players ahead of him are in the HOF; the ones that aren't are either active, ineligible, or have issues (see Bonds, Barry and Clemens, Roger).
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
Derek scores 10 on the Black Ink test, and 145 on the Gray Ink test. The latter is close to the average HOF'er (144). He played in Yankee Stadiums II and III (mostly in II), which floated between being a hitter's park and a pitcher's park during his career.
He also played those 158 post-season games – the equivalent of about an entire season's worth of games – over his career. There is some suggestion that this could have contributed to his decline in the last two years of his career (which were both years the Yankees didn't play in the post-season, the first since 2008 and the only time in his career he didn't make the post-season in two straight seasons).
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?
He is not yet eligible for the Hall of Fame. If Chipper Jones is selected before 2019, the question is a mortal lock yes.
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
He was the 1996 AL ROTY, the 2000 ASG and WS MVP. He has 2.77 Career Win Shares – his best finishes were third, both in 1998, where he had 180 votes behind Juan Gonzalez and Nomar Garciaparra; and in 2009 where he had 193 votes behind Joe Mauer and Mark Teixeira (his teammate with the Yankees). He also won five Gold Gloves and five more silver sluggers (all of them after A-Rod joined the Yankees, by the way).
12. How many All-Star type seasons did he have? How many All-Star Games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many go into the Hall of Fame?
Derek played in 14 All-Star games, being voted to start at shortstop 9 times, all for the AL. This is more than many players have ever had in their careers. In fact, it's more than Yount (3) and Alomar (12), and in the same ballpark as Ripken (19) – kinda.
13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
Heh. Ha ha hah… HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHHHAAAAAAAA…. (wheeze) Heh… okay, seriously… do you wanna look at how many World Series rings he has?
14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
I would argue one salient point: if he had been healthy and able to play in the 2002 All-Star Game, the American League might have actually won the game. And then we wouldn't have been forced to deal with the "This Time It Counts" crap for the last dozen seasons or so.
15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
There's been a lot of throwing around of the "Derek Jeter ideal" out there as of late. He kept his private life private – something he might have a lot of trouble doing once he is retired.
There is no belief that he may have been involved in PED's during his career – though it was smack-dab in the middle of such time, and he played right next to at least three high-profile players involved in PED scandals (Rodriguez, Giambi, Clemens).
If there is any player from past history that he is most similar to in demeanor, it would have to be Joe DiMaggio. The main difference, of course, is that DiMaggio was born in California. And, of course, Jeter only supposedly briefly dated Madonna, whereas Joe married Marilyn Monroe.
16. Is this player likely to make it to the Hall of Fame? Will he likely enter on the first ballot?
A lot can happen in the five years between retirement and enshrinement. Dirt could be uncovered – sex, drugs, his last "hit" was a "gimme", refusing to play in some ASG's – that could tarnish his body of work.
But consider this: he has five World Series rings, and has a post-season stat line that some players would kill to have in the regular season. And he was the reason the Yankees moved the best shortstop in the American League to third base. Oh, and let's not forget the diving catches, that ridiculous assist on a missed cutoff throw, and oh by the way, he was the first Yankee to collect 3,000 hits – all in pinstripes.
It would take a LOT to convince anyone he's not a slam-dunk, nearly-unanimous, first-ballot Hall of Famer.
Except for some Yankee haters, of course.
EDIT: And, of course, Charlie. Take it easy, Astro Boy; Biggio and Bagwell will get into the Hall eventually.
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Yeah, I'm perfectly happy to have everyone shut up about him and focus on the postseason and the players that still are good and are playing games that matter.
No one has ever said that Jeter is the best player ever. But he's definitely in the top 10 all-around. There are very few players with more consistent, productive, lengthy, and overall impressive careers.
http://espn.go.com/blog/jayson-stark/post/_/id/952/ten-astounding-derek-jeter-numbers
http://espn.go.com/blog/jayson-stark/post/_/id/952/ten-astounding-derek-jeter-numbers
I was replying to Dark Audit's posting of Ken Olbermann's bullshit.
Keith Olbermann
What puts Jeter so high on the great players list is that he was top 15 in nearly every offensive and defensive category. He is just consistently good at everything baseball, even now that he had two slump years, he is still one of the best at the position.