[Movies] Dammit, Frozen (spoilers)

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#1
WARNING AGAIN: Spoilers for the Disney movie FROZEN

If Frozen was a shitty movie through and through, I think I'd have less problems with it. I can tolerate something being shitty. What gets under my skin is when you mix shit and good ideas, so I have to go "Dammit, why couldn't those good things be in a better movie?"

I get that a lot of people enjoyed Frozen, so I made a point not to take cracks at it in the latest movie thread, but as my wife and I discussed seeing it again, all the problems I had with it came billowing up, both subjectively and objectively. At first I had believed that the filmmakers made Tangled for one kind of audience and Frozen for another, but the more thought I gave Frozen, the more I saw its cracks. All movies have problems as an objective matter. Even the most seemingly perfect films have issues. Your own enjoyment of a movie is going to be whether the good outweighs the bad.

So, what I liked: the visuals were beautiful, the animation (particularly the faces) was solid, the villain twist, and the love twist. Olaf was a decent character and had some great lines. The opening song was engaging and got me into the movie. I liked that the movie was about two sisters, particularly the backstory and the climax.

Okay, with that out of the way, some of my problems were subjective and others are critical to the structure of the film. I could not stand the presentation of the song "Let It Go." Good writing, one of the few songs that didn't feel intrusive, and yet they present it like a pop song. The way the piano plays as the camera pans the mountain at the song's opening feels like the scene was designed firstly a scene they could isolate as a music video clip on the Disney channel, and really took me out of what was an emotional moment for Elsa. (I also can't stand the singer's shrill high notes and would've preferred a slightly lower pitch, but that's personal taste and I can't hold that against the movie.)

Too many fucking characters whose purposes are to be red herrings. Weasel Duke is a pretend villain so we have someone to hate-on until Hans shows his true colors. Hans is a pretend love interest because Anna will really fall for Kristof. Kristof is a pretend love cure because the love between Anna and Elsa is the real deal. If you cut out Weasel Duke and make Elsa the pretend villain, and get rid of Kristof so that Hans seems like the love interest, you get a stronger story with less characters to shove in. Having Hans be the only love interest, and then betray Anna, would mean the movie-makers had to stick to their message at the end. Same with Elsa and Anna--if Elsa is the villain red herring until the prince captures her, Anna's love comes off as stronger. I don't know why Kristof exists except to give Anna a man at the end, which is against the message in the movie. Sven could've been that whole character, no love interest. The inclusion of these unnecessary characters makes it feel like the movie's overall purpose is to trick the audience, when they could've pulled off the twists they wanted without bogging down the story.

The songs came out of nowhere much of the time. It felt like the people doing the screenplay had almost no contact with the people writing the songs. It felt like "Hi, I'm a character AND HERE'S MY SONG okay, back to what we were doing," as opposed to developing characters or moving the story forward. Recent Disney movies have gotten away from the kinds of songs that just interrupt the pacing and this felt like a huge step back. "Let It Go" was one of the times I felt the song made sense to be at that moment, but Olaf's song, the troll song, Hans and Anna's song, the building a snowman song ... ugh. I liked a couple of those songs, especially Olaf's, but their placement was bizarre. I'm glad the movie got away from this in the third act or we would've had the awkward "running-singing-gotta get there in time but sing about it" way overdone climax of Pocahontas.

I really would've like to see more scenes of Anna and Elsa, but that's not the story about sistery love they were trying to tell, it seems.

Now, I may care about these problems less if I watch Frozen not right after re-watching Spirited Away, Ratatouille, and Kung Fu Panda 2, followed up by Tangled, The Princess and the Frog, and Wreck-It Ralph. My viewing sandwiched it in the middle of much better animated movies, whereas people with kids have probably had to watch some true garbage and Frozen was a beacon of icy glory. But whether I care or not, the problems exist.

Then there's this video (warning: spoilers for Frozen, Tangled, and Wreck-It Ralph)

I don't agree with everything these guys say, but most of the problems they note are accurate, especially comparing how Frozen tackles character emotion and dialogue versus an important scene in Wreck-It Ralph.
 
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#2
I think time and re-watching it will likely have me agreeing with you more. In fact, the more I've thought about the movie since seeing it, the more I realize there are a number of problems with it. Some of the musical numbers really do feel shoehorned in, especially the troll song. At that point, we're so far into the movie - not to mention without a song in quite awhile - that it just felt unnecessary.


For me, "Let it Go" was one of the finest Disney songs we've had in quite awhile. That you're not a fan of Idina Menzel likely plays a major role in your general distaste for the song. Personally, I loved it because it starts out slow and then gradually builds until she's full-on diva, belting out the number at the top of her lungs, like it's a huge coming out party for her acceptance of her situation (and powers). For that alone, some people are saying it's a quasi-allegory to someone in the LGBT community coming out. I'd say that's arguable, but there's enough there to argue in its favour.

I didn't mind the Duke character because really, he wasn't very well developed and didn't hoard much screen time.
 
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#3
For me, "Let it Go" was one of the finest Disney songs we've had in quite awhile. That you're not a fan of Idina Menzel likely plays a major role in your general distaste for the song. Personally, I loved it because it starts out slow and then gradually builds until she's full-on diva, belting out the number at the top of her lungs, like it's a huge coming out party for her acceptance of her situation (and powers). For that alone, some people are saying it's a quasi-allegory to someone in the LGBT community coming out. I'd say that's arguable, but there's enough there to argue in its favour.
As I noted, my problems with how it's sung are personal taste. I still think it could've been presented better for such a crucial scene, but there's nothing wrong with the song itself. I'm sure someday someone will do a cover that I'll love.
 
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#4
As I noted, my problems with how it's sung are personal taste. I still think it could've been presented better for such a crucial scene, but there's nothing wrong with the song itself. I'm sure someday someone will do a cover that I'll love.
Found one for ya.


:troll:
 

Cajungal

Staff member
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#5
Though I enjoyed the movie, I felt like it was all over the place sometimes. Looking back at the animated films that have attempted to give the female protagonist a bit more depth and character, I wonder if writers are struggling with creating a story filled with complex people that still appeals to children. I know it is also one of those films that went through a lot of production hell like Brave, but I just wonder if that plays a part at all.

As for "Let it Go," I love Idina Menzel's voice, and the character's expressions during the song really touch me. I do feel like the voice didn't match up with the look of the character sometimes. I imagined that character with a deeper voice, I guess.
 
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#6
Yeah couldn't disagree with you more. I loved the movie the whole time.

Liked the characters and thought they were all interacted extremely well, liked the pacing it didn't seem to have any flab on the story and I liked the finale.
 
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#7
Though I enjoyed the movie, I felt like it was all over the place sometimes. Looking back at the animated films that have attempted to give the female protagonist a bit more depth and character, I wonder if writers are struggling with creating a story filled with complex people that still appeals to children. I know it is also one of those films that went through a lot of production hell like Brave, but I just wonder if that plays a part at all.
I was wondering that too. It's a lot easier to tell a simple love story well that kids can understand than to tell more complex, layered ones about family relationships ... I guess? Lilo and Stitch did it great. So did How to Train Your Dragon. Those are just off the top of my head; I'm sure there are other examples.

I didn't know Frozen had a hellish behind the scenes like Brave--that explains a lot, because I had the same feeling while watching it as I did while watching Brave, like the script needed another draft, but they didn't have time, and there were competing visions as to how the movie should be.

As for "Let it Go," I love Idina Menzel's voice, and the character's expressions during the song really touch me. I do feel like the voice didn't match up with the look of the character sometimes. I imagined that character with a deeper voice, I guess.
I thought deeper voice too.
 

Cajungal

Staff member
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#8
I didn't know Frozen had a hellish behind the scenes like Brave--that explains a lot, because I had the same feeling while watching it as I did while watching Brave, like the script needed another draft, but they didn't have time, and there were competing visions as to how the movie should be.
I don't think it was as bad as Brave in terms of production, but it was one of those that was proposed somewhere back in the 90s and it took forever to get off the ground. So it might've been a bit "overcooked."
 
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#10
The songs came out of nowhere much of the time. It felt like the people doing the screenplay had almost no contact with the people writing the songs. It felt like "Hi, I'm a character AND HERE'S MY SONG okay, back to what we were doing," as opposed to developing characters or moving the story forward. Recent Disney movies have gotten away from the kinds of songs that just interrupt the pacing and this felt like a huge step back. "Let It Go" was one of the times I felt the song made sense to be at that moment, but Olaf's song, the troll song, Hans and Anna's song, the building a snowman song ... ugh. I liked a couple of those songs, especially Olaf's, but their placement was bizarre. I'm glad the movie got away from this in the third act or we would've had the awkward "running-singing-gotta get there in time but sing about it" way overdone climax of Pocahontas.
Given your comment about recent Disney movies getting away from this, is this an inherent problem with the Disney musical style that you also have with a bunch of the older Disney classics(Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin)? Or are you saying that it's a matter of execution where you feel Frozen falls behind?
 
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#11
Given your comments about recent Disney movies getting away from this, is this an inherent problem with the Disney musical style that you also have with a bunch of the older Disney classics(Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin)? Or are you saying that it's a matter of execution where you feel Frozen falls behind?
I'd have to re-watch some of the older Disney movies to go point for point, song for song, because you'll have songs where they feel like they have a purpose or at least the moment is right for a song versus having a song for the sake of having a song. No movie is all one or all the other. Even Tangled, which I love, had one that felt dropped in.

The difference I'm thinking is between the music, scene, dialogue, etc. saying "Okay, here comes a song" versus "SONG HERE!", which for all I know is what it said in the script before the songs were written.
 
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#12
Alright, in that case including "Do you want to build a snowman" on that list really feels off to me then (the others I agree or disagree with you to varying extents). It's a song that covers the time lapse between past and present and establishes both Anna's and Elsa's relationship in the aftermath of the incident and Anna's personality, that seems about as far from one of those songs they just pop in and breaks up the pacing as you can get to me.
 
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#13
Alright, in that case including "Do you want to build a snowman" on that list really feels off to me then (the others I agree or disagree with you to varying extents). It's a song that covers the time lapse between past and present and establishes both Anna's and Elsa's relationship in the aftermath of the incident and Anna's personality, that seems about as far from one of those songs they just pop in and breaks up the pacing as you can get to me.
There did need to be a montage there and a song can help that move along. The way it comes in is sudden.

On a subjective level, I didn't care for the song because the lyrics felt awkward and made me cringe (and later I found my wife felt the same), but that's me personally and that's not something I'd hold against the movie.
 
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#14
I always wonder why some people seem to think that all movies have to follow certain rules. You can't have a character from the past that doesn't connect with the past. Etc.
I mean if I enjoy the film that's all that matters right?
 
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#15
I always wonder why some people seem to think that all movies have to follow certain rules. You can't have a character from the past that doesn't connect with the past. Etc.
I don't think it's been said here that all movies have to follow certain rules, so I don't know what you're referring to. There are many methods to making a story work, a character, etc. Sometimes movie makers do old cliches and they work. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes movie makers try new things and they work. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they get lazy and it shows. Sometimes it works anyway. Most of the time you have a movie with both good and bad in it.

I mean if I enjoy the film that's all that matters right?
If I like it, then I like it; if I don't like it, then I don't like it. Don't ask why, don't discuss things.

I think you know that I'm not Charlie--I'm not saying people shouldn't like the movie. Notice that Dubyaman's post was pretty much "I like this, I like that" and I didn't respond to it? Because the only thing up for discussion from that is whether he liked the movie and there is nothing to discuss about that. Those are his feelings. Like I said in my OP, on a future viewing, I might be able to look past these problems more than I do now and like the movie a little more. But the problems still exist. Like I also said in my OP, people with kids end up seeing a lot of garbage regularly, so their tolerance threshold for problems is pretty low. Back when I was babysitting and my cousins wanted to watch the same Spongebob Squarepants episode and then Cinderella 2 over and over, even Pocahontas seemed like a godsend.

Julie popped in to point out that people not immersed in stories and analyzing stories aren't going to find analyzing of stories/movies/etc. to be a subject of merit. I could've sat and analyzed why Wreck-It Ralph is a great movie with the same detail as analyzing why Frozen isn't, but I didn't feel it necessary. This felt necessary because I really wanted to like Frozen, but I couldn't get past all the problems I see in it, and I want to discuss it. I'm not shitting on anyone else liking the movie though.[DOUBLEPOST=1388972807,1388972682][/DOUBLEPOST]Aaaand now I've shown her the "Let It Go" baby version and she's wandering around the apartment singing "let it doe, let it DOE".

Thanks a bunch, Nick.
 
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#16
Aaaand now I've shown her the "Let It Go" baby version and she's wandering around the apartment singing "let it doe, let it DOE".

Thanks a bunch, Nick.
:minionhappy:

(I'm honestly surprised your main squeeze doesn't just join us on the forums. From the things you've told me about her, she'd fit right in.)
 
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#19
If I like it, then I like it; if I don't like it, then I don't like it. Don't ask why, don't discuss things.

I think you know that I'm not Charlie--I'm not saying people shouldn't like the movie. Notice that Dubyaman's post was pretty much "I like this, I like that" and I didn't respond to it? Because the only thing up for discussion from that is whether he liked the movie and there is nothing to discuss about that. Those are his feelings. Like I said in my OP, on a future viewing, I might be able to look past these problems more than I do now and like the movie a little more. But the problems still exist. Like I also said in my OP, people with kids end up seeing a lot of garbage regularly, so their tolerance threshold for problems is pretty low. Back when I was babysitting and my cousins wanted to watch the same Spongebob Squarepants episode and then Cinderella 2 over and over, even Pocahontas seemed like a godsend.

Julie popped in to point out that people not immersed in stories and analyzing stories aren't going to find analyzing of stories/movies/etc. to be a subject of merit. I could've sat and analyzed why Wreck-It Ralph is a great movie with the same detail as analyzing why Frozen isn't, but I didn't feel it necessary. This felt necessary because I really wanted to like Frozen, but I couldn't get past all the problems I see in it, and I want to discuss it. I'm not shitting on anyone else liking the movie though.
Wellll...the "people see a lot of crap, so I understand how they might not care about the problems" comes off a bit of shitting on those who like it, since it sounds like you're saying they don't actually know what's good like you do. Speaking as someone who's recently watched Tangled (one of the much better movies you mentioned sandwiching Frozen between), I'd say Frozen is at least as good, if not better. But that's me. You're entitled to your thoughts on what worked and what didn't, and I respect that, but I hope you don't think those of us who liked it only did so because we don't know anything better.
 
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#20
Wellll...the "people see a lot of crap, so I understand how they might not care about the problems" comes off a bit of shitting on those who like it, since it sounds like you're saying they don't actually know what's good like you do. Speaking as someone who's recently watched Tangled (one of the much better movies you mentioned sandwiching Frozen between), I'd say Frozen is at least as good, if not better. But that's me. You're entitled to your thoughts on what worked and what didn't, and I respect that, but I hope you don't think those of us who liked it only did so because we don't know anything better.
No, no. You don't know any better. >:3
 
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#21
I enjoyed it in a packed theater. Tons of people, some kids even in the back singing the songs while they played. Good time had by all.
 
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#22
No, no. You don't know any better. >:3
No. :facepalm:

Wellll...the "people see a lot of crap, so I understand how they might not care about the problems" comes off a bit of shitting on those who like it, since it sounds like you're saying they don't actually know what's good like you do. Speaking as someone who's recently watched Tangled (one of the much better movies you mentioned sandwiching Frozen between), I'd say Frozen is at least as good, if not better. But that's me. You're entitled to your thoughts on what worked and what didn't, and I respect that, but I hope you don't think those of us who liked it only did so because we don't know anything better.
Your paraphrasing entirely changes what I said.

The whole point of my saying that was so as NOT to come off that way. I felt I worded it in the OP to be clear that maybe my perception was more against Frozen because of recent context. Context can affect perception, so I illustrated my context versus possible context that people with kids would be in. So as not to be coming across as "I know what you should like". It wasn't that people with kids don't know what's good or not because I never made that judgment. To give you a counter-context, Dei has kids, likely sees a lot of crap, and felt Frozen was flat. So there, example ruined. By how you're phrasing it, I see her as a fellow enlightened person who watched the movies I listed--except likely everybody with kids right now has seen most if not all of those movies, because that's what happens when you have kids. You're taking it as if the context element is movie ranking, but my point was that how you feel can be colored by what's going on around you. Even the experience at the theater can color how a person feels.

So again, I mentioned that to give clarity to my situation. The majority of the OP is about breaking down the movie's issues, but that part was to mention mine.

To reverse it, if you asked me to defend old Godzilla movies on an objective level, I really couldn't. Their plots are messy, the effects get worse every film, the acting isn't good with the occasional exception, there are long stretches of film where nothing much happens--I could go on and with the detail I gave Frozen. But I enjoy those movies. That doesn't restrict me from criticizing them.

So yet again, perhaps in a future context, Frozen will appeal to me more and I'll enjoy it despite its problems. That doesn't change the movie, doesn't change its problems; the change would be mine. I've had that happen where movies I didn't care for I later came to enjoy, and movies I enjoyed became movies I didn't care for. But the problems with the movies don't change (unless they're Star Wars OT and absorb new problems with each revision).
 
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#23
Fair enough, I didn't think you were really trying to be a jerk, just sharing how that statement came off to me.
 
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#24
Well to analyze, I think that Wreck-It-Ralph and Frozen are two entirely different movies in terms of format. For example the guys with from that Critical Hit video compared the two in terms of expression. Frozen has to sing the word "fear" to show the audience she's scared, while Wreck It Ralph can do it without works. Well I think the biggest difference that wasn't considered is that one is a musical and one isn't. Musicals DO express their feelings through words/song. That's the point.
 
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#25
Well to analyze, I think that Wreck-It-Ralph and Frozen are two entirely different movies in terms of format. For example the guys with from that Critical Hit video compared the two in terms of expression. Frozen has to sing the word "fear" to show the audience she's scared, while Wreck It Ralph can do it without works. Well I think the biggest difference that wasn't considered is that one is a musical and one isn't. Musicals DO express their feelings through words/song. That's the point.
There's a difference between expressing it in words and saying exactly what it is. It's lazy to have the characters say "I feel this way" instead of having them act in a way that represents it. It's lazy to say "Hey audience, these characters are in love" instead of having them act in ways that make it clear they're in love.

Even musically, "there's so much fear" is a lazy lyric. Imagine if the Beauty and the Beast songs "Something There" and "Beauty and the Beast" went something like "They might love each other" and "Now they love each other" respectively.

That might not make much difference for you, but for me, the Critical Hit video nailed it when they said (paraphrasing) that if you just tell me something, I'm not feeling it. I went into Frozen expecting to have a good time and wanting to like. I don't sit there analyzing the movie while watching it or marking up a checklist. I just watch the movie. If I feel some disconnect, or don't feel anything though, it's going to sour the experience, and afterward I wonder why, and start analyzing to figure it out. Was it me? Was it the movie? A little of both?

Like I said in the OP, if I felt Frozen was a bad movie, I'd just write it off and forget about it. But I'd be enjoying one scene and disconnected the next, and it was this jarring mix of good and bad that bugged me.
 
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#26
This discussion is really refreshing. I keep seeing Frozen stuff on Tumblr, and my God, it has broken down into such wretched social justice bullshit it can actually trigger a migraine.
 
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#27
This discussion is really refreshing. I keep seeing Frozen stuff on Tumblr, and my God, it has broken down into such wretched social justice bullshit it can actually trigger a migraine.
Oh yeah, all of that is complete fucking nonsense.
 
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#28
It's ok to not like Frozen. I came out of it feeling pretty meh, though unlike you I like the music. ;) I thought Gravity was also terrible, but when I say that I get the same reactions. ;)
 
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#30
It's ok to not like Frozen. I came out of it feeling pretty meh, though unlike you I like the music. ;) I thought Gravity was also terrible, but when I say that I get the same reactions. ;)
I liked some of the music and didn't like other of the music.

And Gravity WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T LIKE GRAVITY WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH I haven't actually seen it. :/
 

Gusto

Staff member
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#31
I liked Frozen. After giving it a few days to consider, I definitely preferred Tangled.

Also:

There's a difference between expressing it in words and saying exactly what it is. It's lazy to have the characters say "I feel this way" instead of having them act in a way that represents it. It's lazy to say "Hey audience, these characters are in love" instead of having them act in ways that make it clear they're in love.
 
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#33
Came to my attention today that I'm pretty much doing what I'm accusing Frozen of with telling that I thought some of it was good without showing that. So I'm gonna run with this comment:

This discussion is really refreshing. I keep seeing Frozen stuff on Tumblr, and my God, it has broken down into such wretched social justice bullshit it can actually trigger a migraine.
and defend it from some of the criticism I've seen with another breakdown, since I can't fall back on "I liked it".

Criticism #1: Frozen is racist, Disney is racist, ALL THE RACISTS!!!11

First and most obvious, having the main characters be white is not racist, and if it was, having three background wallpaper characters being other ethnicities would not be a defense against it. Frozen has the unfortunate luck of becoming a scapegoat for social justice idiots. If this was The Last Airbender-level white washing, I'd agree it was racist. But it's based on a Danish fairy tale in a fictional kingdom. Frozen is not The Snow Queen. The diverse characters from that story aren't present to be white washed--in fact, none of the characters from The Snow Queen are present. Nor is the plot, the backstory, the location. Frozen doesn't resemble The Snow Queen at all, so if anyone has a reason to be pissed, it's fans of the Hans Christian Anderson story for the end credits bothering to say Frozen is based on that story.

Criticism #2: Hans didn't have to be evil and his plan was stupid.

No character has to be evil.

Hans is essentially a Joffrey who has fooled the audience and not just the characters. And that's fine; that level of deception meant his turn could be a surprise for the audience, it was well-executed in its scene, and looking back at the rest of the movie, it didn't confuse things--instead it made them make more sense. Even a 13th son of a king wouldn't be in sheltered desperation for love. He knew his chances at a throne lay in marriage and he went for it. Now, it would've been smarter if, instead of trying to kill Anna, he let things take their course and then got her pregnant. A bloodline tie to the established royalty would be the best way to secure his place. However, again, Hans wouldn't be desperate for love, and probably would've found someone else pretty easily. He was already planning to be the hero of the kingdom, and even if the un-witnessed marriage vows were bullshit, someone would've needed to be established as the ruler and start of a new royal bloodline. If anything, the ease of which he pulled the wool over everyone's eyes made him arrogant.

And for the people I've seen who said "Why couldn't Hans's kiss just not have worked?" ... they already did that in Enchanted. Does no one remember Enchanted? It was a decent Disney movie and pretty funny.

Criticism #3: The feminist message is empty and bullshit.

One of Critical Hit's points I disagree with: I don't think Frozen's writing is simple because they wanted to tell little girls they could only understand simple dialogue. I think that happened because they ran out of time to punch up the dialogue. It costs a lot of money to alter those mouth and facial movements once they've been made, so everything kind of had to be in place before animation started, and animation is time-consuming.

"But in the original story, the girl went off on her own--" NO. That was The Snow Queen and the girl was Gerda. This is Anna. She's a sheltered princess who was smart enough to learn from her own mistake when she tried going off on her own and found she couldn't do it to find a guide. If Kristof is going to be in the movie (I still say Olaf could've done the part) then Anna at least got him on board. He's had more experience on the mountain than her 0 hours, 10 minutes.

The big thing against this is the climax though. Anna's instinct and then Olaf's suggestion point her "true love" option as getting a kiss from someone who loves her, i.e. passively receiving the act of another. What happens, and without Anna meaning to, is her aggressively performing the act of true love herself. She saves not only her sister's life, but her own. She did the act of true love. Let's ignore that being a well-done, ignore the sister connection--the heroine princess saved herself and another through action, not passivity.

Now, in the adult world we don't need every woman to be a feminist figure--people of all genders should be people, and as diverse as real life people are. But compared to the long line of Disney princesses, and other non-Katniss fictional role models that children look up to, that's a pretty strong example of taking control of her own situation.


SHOWING.
 
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#34
Dammit! I know, I know, the title reads "spoilers", but I figured I'd be OK if I skipped the OP and skimmed here and there. Oh well :p
 
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#35
Wow... I must live in a cave (or just go to the wrong websites), because I didn't realize criticisms #2 and #3 existed, and I'm going to agree with you assessment, @zero Es The only complaints I heard, and they were before the movie was released, were "they changed the story/added guys/ruined The Snow Queen" and your #1, the diversity issue, which critics really had to jump through hoops to "prove" why there could have been/should have been more racial diversity. Look, I am totally pro-diversity representation, both racial and gender, but like you said; it's a DANISH fairy tale. I'm not going to go into Mulan or The Lion King screaming, "Hey, where the white women at?!"
I'd also like to point out that once the movie was released, a number of the dissenters changed their mind that Disney ruined the story and did a good job upholding the message of sisterhood, etc. Along those lines, I think they might have been able to pull off the plot
without Hans entirely with just the Duke of Weseltown and misundertanding Elsa, but Hans did create a nice red herring.
You know the one thing that bugged me?
Why did Pabbie/Grandpa never mention he met Anna before? He couldn't have taken, what, 2 seconds to mention he warned her parents about the danger of Elsa hitting the heart? Or erasing her memories?

(Spoiler tags for @Bubble181 )
 
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