[News] The USA Police State will never satisfy its lust for beating, gassing, and imprisoning minorities

I don't think most cops set out to commit murder on a daily basis. I just think they don't consider African-Americans to be human beings with the same rights and protections, and their actions bear that out.

And when it does happen, there sure as fuck don't seem to be any real consequences.
 
I don't think most cops set out to commit murder on a daily basis. I just think they don't consider African-Americans to be human beings with the same rights and protections, and their actions bear that out.

And when it does happen, there sure as fuck don't seem to be any real consequences.
Wow... I cannot even fathom the depths from which this came from.

"Don't consider African-Americans to be human beings"? What the actual.... seriously?

Once the cuffs come out, the decision has been made to detain and/or arrest. Any resistance after that point forces our hand. Increased levels of resistance increase our attempts to affect the arrest. Resulting in the situations I outlined above.

For anomalies, or incidents where officers exceed their authority and jump straight to the lethal force option, hell yes there are consequences! I can name an officer on my department who is still serving time for an incident a couple years after I came on, and his name is still one to conjure with, in reference to shitty decision-making. We do not shoot fleeing subjects, period.

I saw an video of an incident where a K9 was unleashed on a kneeling suspect, and it made my blood boil. Yes, it turned out that suspect had just crashed a car after assaulting an officer, fleeing, as well as the original offense he was being arrested for, but he didn't deserve that, and I hope every officer involved in that decision gets punished for it.

But to sit here and say that we think that someone is subhuman, by don't of race? ...... just... please. Reconsider that line of thought. Because it's so far from reality as to make me question anything else you have to say.
 
You cannot fathom where that comes from?

Really?

HAVE YOU EVEN LOOKED AT THE REST OF THE FUCKING THREAD?

It comes from I Can't Breathe. It comes from Philando Castle's murderer being acquitted despite video evidence. It comes from Tamir Rice getting 2 seconds to live. It comes from officers drawing weapons on unarmed black people as soon as they exit the vehicle. It comes from your friends tasering a kid because they mistook his identity - did they get punished for that, by the way?

It comes from charges rarely being filed and convictions not being pushed for.

It comes from officers saying "We only shoot black people."

It comes from good police officers defending the bad cops.
 
Hey, O_C, just like there's no way to know whether a suspect is going to go off at any moment, there's no way to know from the suspect's POV whether the guy yelling and chasing after you is just very devoted to his job or whether he has murder on his mind. And unfortunately, just as you have to assume the worst, too many people are under the impression that that "Comply = die," and so they believe their only alternative is to flee/resist until their last breath. Once that whole reptile brain thing kicks in, it doesn't get any easier, either.

I don't see an easy solution to this. Everybody has to behave and trust one another, but the profession is one that involves dealing with people who aren't incentivized to do so.

--Patrick
 
You cannot fathom where that comes from?

Really?

HAVE YOU EVEN LOOKED AT THE REST OF THE FUCKING THREAD?

It comes from I Can't Breathe. It comes from Philando Castle's murderer being acquitted despite video evidence. It comes from Tamir Rice getting 2 seconds to live. It comes from officers drawing weapons on unarmed black people as soon as they exit the vehicle. It comes from your friends tasering a kid because they mistook his identity - did they get punished for that, by the way?

It comes from charges rarely being filed and convictions not being pushed for.

It comes from officers saying "We only shoot black people."

It comes from good police officers defending the bad cops.

Okay, your whole reply has fucked with my head all evening. I worked myself into a rage, before I made myself calm down, step away, and beat things in Diablo until I could get my head right.

We draw weapons on everyone who exits vehicles, not just black people, because YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO GET OUT OF THE CAR until/unless you're ordered to.

What taser incident are you referring to? I can't state if someone got punished for a non-specific incident, can I?

Tamir Rice was wielding a gun. A toy gun, but the witness' statement to that effect was not relayed to the officers. I wouldn't have proceeded like they did, but given the information that was dispatched to them, I can't fault them for aggressiveness. Seconds count in a potential gunfight, and age doesn't matter to a gun - a 7 year old is just as lethal as a 20 year old, when wielding a gun. Cold? Definitely, and don't think that I wouldn't be wracked with guilt for the rest of my life if I was forced into that situation by a suspect. But I'm not willing to gamble with my kids still having a father, when it comes to a firearm.

The Castile murder was a travesty. I don't know how the officer got cleared, but he shouldn't have. I encounter folks carrying firearms all the time, and I tell them the same thing every time - "You don't reach for yours, I don't reach for mine, sound good?" Yanez had no business escalating the situation, had no business being the primary officer on that stop, had no business being an officer. I'm glad he was fired, but furious that he dodged conviction.

"I can't breath." I've lost count of how often I've heard that - usually from a suspect that just took off on foot and got run down. No, I don't agree with the level of force that had been used in that situation, but had the suspect not been resisting, it wouldn't have escalated to that point.


@PatrThom, I get what you're saying. I'm not happy with it, but I understand. I do try and keep facts like that in my mind - hell, that guy I mentioned from the other night never even received a charge for resisting, due to his severely altered mental state - but there has to be some give. All I can do is try and keep my cool, keep an encounter light-hearted and keep the subject at ease until the time comes to handle business. I try my best to be fair, and keep EVERYONE involved safe.

But there are days that I read shit like what Null said, and doubt everything that I do with my life, if it means that I'm still going to get viewed with scorn and derision for having to take a stand on the line.

Good officers don't defend bad ones. We don't like them, we don't want them, we want them punished. They make our job infinitely harder.
 
Tamir Rice was wielding a gun. A toy gun, but the witness' statement to that effect was not relayed to the officers. I wouldn't have proceeded like they did, but given the information that was dispatched to them, I can't fault them for aggressiveness. Seconds count in a potential gunfight, and age doesn't matter to a gun - a 7 year old is just as lethal as a 20 year old, when wielding a gun. Cold? Definitely, and don't think that I wouldn't be wracked with guilt for the rest of my life if I was forced into that situation by a suspect. But I'm not willing to gamble with my kids still having a father, when it comes to a firearm.
He literally made no attempt to talk to him or anything. Just went up and shot him. There was never a plan to do anything other than kill him.

The Castile murder was a travesty. I don't know how the officer got cleared, but he shouldn't have. I encounter folks carrying firearms all the time, and I tell them the same thing every time - "You don't reach for yours, I don't reach for mine, sound good?" Yanez had no business escalating the situation, had no business being the primary officer on that stop, had no business being an officer. I'm glad he was fired, but furious that he dodged conviction.
He was cleared because have you not paid attention to anything in this thread?

Good officers don't defend bad ones. We don't like them, we don't want them, we want them punished. They make our job infinitely harder.
Given the "blue lives matter" bullshit that happens every time a cop murders a minority, if thats how you define good cops, it looks like they aren't as common as you'd think.
 

Dave

Staff member
So as an officer, what steps would you take to remove the divide, if there's anything that CAN be done?
 
So as an officer, what steps would you take to remove the divide, if there's anything that CAN be done?
Yes, because it certainly seems that there is a widespread perception that a cop doesn't stop a person unless he intends to drop a person.
Do you do a media campaign? More placement in movies? Community involvement?

--Patrick
 
Yes, because it certainly seems that there is a widespread perception that a cop doesn't stop a person unless he intends to drop a person.
Do you do a media campaign? More placement in movies? Community involvement?

--Patrick
Punish cops that murder people?
 
Punish cops that murder people?
Yeah, the trouble with that is, if you're cleared of murder, then that means you (legally) didn't commit murder, and therefore can't be punished for murdering someone, because whatever it was you did do, it wasn't murder.

--Patrick
 
So as an officer, what steps would you take to remove the divide, if there's anything that CAN be done?
If I had that answer, I could retire on royalties.

I can only do my job, doing the best I can to not allow outside perceptions stop me from acting as impartially as possible.

Like I said, officers (especially newer ones) are trained regularly on de-escalation techniques, verbal judo, Crisis Intervention, in addition to more traditional police techniques. We're adjusting to the changes in society that have come about.

But like any government agency, change comes slowly. Society changes much faster. And it seems that the growing trend is leaning towards one of entitlement, that the individual comes before society as a whole. In other words, fuck the laws that have been voted in, I'm going to do what I want. And like with my obstinate 3 year old son, I refuse to cater to that sense of entitlement.

Compromise is always possible, but both sides have to be willing to meet in the middle.
 
So, are you being intentionally dense or does it just come naturally to you?
Just infuriatingly rational. I feel like getting yanked around by the feelings all the time is what got us into this adversarial mess in the first place. Fear, anger, outrage, and panic are all powerful emotions, but we want less of those things in cop/suspect interactions, not more.

The Law is a lot like computer programming. If you don't like the outcome, you don't fix it by smacking the computer on the nose until it somehow "learns." It's a computer, not a puppy. You debug it until it not only does what you tell it, but also what you want. It cares not one whit for your feelings.

--Patrick
 
Last edited:
Compromise is always possible, but both sides have to be willing to meet in the middle.
He said the phrase! As in all situations, both sides are to blame.

Just infuriatingly rational. I feel like getting yanked around by the feelings all the time is what got us into this adversarial mess in the first place. Fear, anger, outrage, and panic are all powerful emotions, but we want less of those things in cop/suspect interactions, not more.

--Patrick
Just because you try to not care about human lives doesn't make you rational. It makes you distant. People might be less scared of cops if they stop killing innocent people with 0 repercussions.
 
Because you know damn well when I said the cop murdered someone I didn't mean he was convicted of the crime of murder. That's the entire point, actually. Its just a thing so you can tell me I'm wrong without having to go after the substance of what I said.
 
Wow, look at all this text.
No, really. Look at it. All of it.

Because you know damn well when I said the cop murdered someone I didn't mean he was convicted of the crime of murder. That's the entire point, actually. Its just a thing so you can tell me I'm wrong without having to go after the substance of what I said.
Look, we can't just punish a guy "beacause blotsfan says he deserves it," no matter how strongly you believe it. The rest of the world is not going to elect you the ultimate arbiter of what constitutes "murder." The same goes for every other individual in the world, even me. No one person can be the ultimate arbiter of that sort of thing, because it would too easily fall victim to caprice (or bribery, or Alzheimer's, or whatever else). That's why there are laws. That's why even people like the Vegas shooter (had he lived) would still have been put on trial even though there was overwhelming evidence at the scene, he was caught in the act, everyone saw him do it, etc.

There's no doubt that this particular cop committed a homicide. None. This isn't OJ, we all know this guy killed the other guy. It's on the Internet, on dash cam, witnesses were sitting right there, etc. This case hinged on procedure and mens rea. The jury did not acquit because they felt Yanez was a poor, misguided sheep who had lost his way and merely needed a second chance anything like that, he was acquitted because the jury felt the State did not fulfill its requirements for pursuing the specific charges leveled against Mr. Yanez, and so they therefore could not impose the sentence the State requested. Thus ended the criminal case (for now, I guess...I doubt the State will ever file new charges).
Lest you think that there was no pound of flesh to be had, the city did have to cough up almost 3 million dollars in a civil settlement, though I have no idea how they determined this total as an "appropriate" amount.

I know, I know...you're going to be all, "...but this solves nothing! Where is the admission of responsibility? Where is the Justice?" And the short of it is that everyone connected with this case (this is important!) has been satisfied. The State did its thing (and failed). The family sued and got money. Everyone who could do a thing did a thing and got a thing, even if it wasn't a thing they wanted. YOU are still outraged, but you have no standing in this situation and so even though you are unhappy about it, you have no means to effect any sort of change of outcome. This may frustrate you, but this is a good thing because the State should not have to fight off the literal millions of follow-up lawsuits that would be filed just because some guy who heard about it on the Internet or in the newspaper thought that things should've gone differently.

NOW...

You do have the power to affect how the Law treats future officers who abuse their power and position, or who are not able to handle the responsibilities of their job. But you do not do this by organizing a mob to go burn down a precinct, or by assassinating an officer, or even by yelling at someone you've never met on an Internet forum. You do it by effecting change in the laws you believe are unjust. Everything else is just discussion, and changes nothing.

Of course, if what you were after was an admission of sympathy, you can have that from me with no strings attached. I think that Yanez got off too easy for what was (at best) a lapse in judgement, and both of us will no doubt agree that it was a tragedy that someone who was probably doing his best to comply with regulations got killed as a result of that lapse, but Castile was nowhere near a member of my monkeysphere, nor do we share much other commonality (aside from being male gun/car owners, maybe? But that's a stretch), so the amount of caring I'm going to do for this specific human life is going to be lower than that of my family, my friends, etc. If I seem distant about this, it's because he was, well...distant.

--Patrick
 
To clarify, O_C, I don't mean when the suspect gets out of their vehicle, I mean the police car rolls up, and the cops have guns drawn by the time they exit the police cruiser.

And no, both sides are not to blame. When one side is supposed to serve and protect, to be trained to deal with intense situations, and above all, to be accountable for their actions, the burden of correct action is on them. If we are supposed to trust the police with authority, we must hold them accountable, which we demonstrably do not.

Michael Brelo was a Cleveland police officer. In 2012, after a short car chase, Michael Brelo and other officers fired 137 times into Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams' car. Brelo fired 49 of those shots, meaning he had to reload twice. When he fired the last 15 rounds, Brelo was literally standing on the car, where he could see the couple was unarmed and, at this time, already mortally wounded or dead.

He was acquitted on all charges.

Where's the both sides on that?



Since 2005, here's a list of every single white police officer who has done time for the on-duty killing of a black person.

  • Joshua Colclough: Colclough received four years in prison for shooting Wendell Allen in the chest in New Orleans.
  • Gregg Gunnier, Arthur Tesser and Jason Smith: These three cops burst into the Atlanta home of 92-year-old Kathryn Johnson, shot her dead and received five- to 10-year sentences.
  • Johannes Mehserle: Shot Oscar Grant in the back of the head while he was handcuffed and on the ground at a BART train station in Oakland, Calif. He received two years in jail.
  • Robert Bates: Though he technically wasn’t an actual police officer, this millionaire reserve deputy with the Tulsa Sheriff’s Office who was playing cops and robbers joined in a chase of a bank-robbery suspect and inadvertently shot Robert Bates in the head. He will serve four years.
  • Michael Slager: While technically convicted for civil rights violations after shooting Walter Scott in the back in North Charleston, S.C., while he was running away, Slager has yet to be sentenced.
And that's all of them.


So you can say that police are held accountable, but they're not.
 
If the list were expanded to include white-on-white, black-on-white, and black-on-black on-duty killings, how much of a difference would that make? Because I really don't feel like we should be focusing on the whites-killing-blacks facet so much as the cops-killing-people-who-don't-deserve-to-die facet.

--Patrick
 
If the list were expanded to include white-on-white, black-on-white, and black-on-black on-duty killings, how much of a difference would that make? Because I really don't feel like we should be focusing on the whites-killing-blacks facet so much as the cops-killing-people-who-don't-deserve-to-die facet.

--Patrick
In 2015, of the 235 unarmed people killed by law-enforcement officers, only 18 deaths resulted in officers being charged. Another 169 unarmed civilians were killed in 2016, according to The Guardian, but only 16 officers even faced charges. In the last 10 years, only 82 cops have ever faced charges for killing anyone, meaning that more than 99 percent of cops who have caused the death of a civilian were never charged with a crime.
 
And in the course of your exhaustive research, in how many of those instances was the subject actively resisting, under the influence of some sort of substance that precluded other uses of force, or otherwise placed the officer in a situation where lethal force was the only recourse?
 
And in the course of your exhaustive research, in how many of those instances was the subject actively resisting, under the influence of some sort of substance that precluded other uses of force, or otherwise placed the officer in a situation where lethal force was the only recourse?
Well, there's always this (NSFL):


Which is less of a shooting, and more of an execution.

And guess what his boss decided to do before the tape got leaked to the public?
 
Yes, because it certainly seems that there is a widespread perception that a cop doesn't stop a person unless he intends to drop a person.
Do you do a media campaign? More placement in movies? Community involvement?

--Patrick
I think it's this perception that is causing at least some of @blotsfan's attitude, but my perception of the issue is that there are literally MILLIONS of stops every day (thousands guaranteed, 6 figures likely IMO, 7 figures seems somewhat reasonable) in the USA where... nothing happens. At least nothing violent, or bad enough to reach the "news cycle." Most people get tickets (sorry OC, but most people's perception of Police IMO is "revenue generators" due to traffic stops), a few get arrested without incident, presumably fewer get arrested WITH an incident (resisting arrest in any way), and very very few get to the point of killing somebody. And it's a sub-set of THOSE where the police are in the wrong.

So under that idea, I'd say that in general the police are doing remarkably well. We need to examine them continually since unlike virtually every other person, they have the power to impact your life dramatically negatively. A criminal record means something to most people, and thus it's a disaster if it happens. Thus increased focus on that at the least, and of course the ability to use lethal force means that they should be scrutinized, but that is very very far from the "well just stop killing people!" sentiment I see expressed above.
 
It's not so much the cops killing people aspect that's so damning to the police as an institution. Vetting will never be perfect and things like that happening is somewhat understandable. It'd just be nice if when a cop kills an innocent person that they'd face consequences above "nothing at all."
 
Again, I think that has to do a lot with perception.
I mean, I don't think anyone in this thread thinks all officers are above and beyond reproach, perfect paragons of Duty and Honor. There is, however, a big difference between "there are serious issues with oversight and vetting, and some corpses have shown misbehavior on a more systemic scale" and, as Null said higher up this page: "I [...] think [most cops] don't consider African-Americans to be human beings".

There are definitely cases - well-known, mediatized cases, as well as the smaller ones that get kept quiet - where officers "got away" with something they shouldn't have. Be it killing someone or being over-aggressive or making racist remarks. And there are "things" being done to combat this - body cams, stricter procedures, education on non-combat ways of subduing a person, etc etc. It may be too little and too slow, but things are slowly changing.
Trying to influence this to speed things up is certainly admirable. Denying anything's being done and it's worse now than ever, is falling for the trap of "it's more in the media, therefore it's more".
 
My big issue is that it feels like the Blue Shield has become all encompassing, and now in many cops minds, it's not about protecting the public, but instead protecting themselves from the public. There was an article I read recently about a cop that was fired back in May, not for killing someone, but for failing to kill someone.

The suspect was depressed and attempting suicide by cop, but the first responding officer instead tried to talk him down. When two other officers showed up, they shot the man dead, and the first responding officer was fired for "putting his fellow officers in danger." by not using lethal force when he first saw the gun. He would have kept his job for executing a man that he felt was not an actual threat, and for using his own judgement to try and save a civilian life, he was punished for not putting his fellow officers above the suspect.

I respect you a lot Officer Charon, but I got a little uneasy a few post backs when you called them your "brothers and sisters". People that call others (friends, co-workers, etc) such endearing terms like brother and sister, at least to me, are willing to bend the rules to protect them, which is why I hear it a lot from people in the military who are willing to kill for their squadmates. I know if I caught one of my brothers smoking some weed or doing something else outside the law, I wouldn't just go turn them into the police the next minute because they were doing something illegal. They are my brothers, and I have some interest in protecting them (though of course, even I have limits, like murder would be a big fucking no), and so when you use such terms, I feel like the minute an event goes down in which your partner makes a mistake, like say, guns down an unarmed fleeing suspect whose fight or flight reflex kicked in, you would do what you can, even subconsciously, to defend him in the situation rather then do everything you can to be impartial.

Maybe I just want to know, Officer Charon, but if you were in that situation, where one of your closest friends at the precinct, decided one day to get spooked, and shoots a man dead who was reaching for his license, would you do everything you can to protect him from consequence, or will you give a statement, knowing it would damn him to prison? I know you don't go out looking to kill, no one expects that, but that isn't the problem. The problem is the intense defense the police have for one of their own, even over the lives lost by innocent civilians. No person wants to feel like they could one day just be collateral damage to the very people that are supposed to protect them.
 
Last edited:
The suspect was depressed and attempting suicide by cop, but the first responding officer instead tried to talk him down.
There seems to be a huge disconnect between what people think an officer should do in a situation and what an officer actually should do in a given situation.

That's one of the biggest issues with body cams is that while two people may see the same scene unfolding, they may have wildly different opinions on what action should be taken.

The case you point to is rather an extreme variant, though, and you seem to think that officers shouldn't shoot an armed man who was threatening to kill them.

Perhaps the first officer had not only a PhD level psychology degree, but also knew the disturbed individual to such a degree that he could 100% predict his behavior, and knew without any shred of doubt that the individual would not, and could not, lift is gun and use it.

I just very much doubt that this was the case, and by allowing that individual to continue to make threats with such a weapon was recklessly dangerous not only to the officer, but to anyone else nearby, including newly arriving officers, bystanders, and even those further away that could be harmed by a missed or stray shot. The officer put others in danger.

That you, and apparently many others, feel the opposite shows a profound misunderstanding of how to handle dangerous situations.

Attacking individual police officers for evidence based training, policy, and procedure is not going to have any useful outcome. If you really want the police to change their behavior then work through your legislature. Fund studies showing that the policies and procedures should be changed because those changes will better protection society. Get to know your local police force and ask them about their encounters and experiences so you can better understand the situations they face daily.
 
Top