[Movies] The DC Cinematic Universe - The David Zazlav Dumpster Fire.

Fun Size

Fun Size

<disengage lurking cloak>

The problem is, as I see it, that A) the Nolan Batman films made a lot of money and B) Marvel actually does update their characters to be more believable, just not much because they don't take themselves so damned seriously. So basically, he's trying to do things that have worked really, really well for others, but doesn't quite have the knack for it. Coupled with the fact that people apparently hate their money and therefore will go throw it at any movie where one person punches/shoots/laser blasts another person, and you have a lifetime career for our good friend the Desaturator.

Still, if any of these pictures were in color, it might look cool enough to rent. Maybe. If I'm promised that Superman loses his shit and kills someone. :awesome:

<engage lurking cloak>
 
Celt Z

Celt Z

Sometimes I feel like Nolan's Batmans were the worst thing to happen to DC. And this is in a world where the Schumacher Batmans exist.

The problem is DC wants the "cool" factor, and let's be honest: comics are never cool. They are fun, they are adventurous, they are inspiring, they can be awesome, but not "cool" (and there's nothing wrong with that). DC poisoned it's well by letting a series a movies take all the "comic book" out of one of their heroes, and because it was successful all they want to do it recreate that. And they can't because a) Batman is a regular human, so removing the more fantastical elements can be done, and b) unlike Marvel, who based their characters off of (bad) science, their characters are rooted in the fantastical. They are flying gods and aliens and powered by magic. I hate that they're stuck in this endless loop of brown and "gritty realism". They need to embrace the fantastic again, and stop acting like they're ashamed of it.

I wasn't alive for it (so anyone with more first-person experience please correct me), but from what I've been told, the 70's were very cynical. We lost a war, we lost jobs, the economy took a nosedive, and the American "cowboy hero" was no longer en vogue. And DC made a huge hit with the biggest, purest boy scout in the comics, making audiences "believe a man can fly". I don't think we need to retread Superman, but they need to find that sense of awe and wonder again.
 
Covar

Covar

Celt Z said:
Sometimes I feel like Nolan's Batmans were the worst thing to happen to DC. And this is in a world where the Schumacher Batmans exist.
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Well the Schumacher films were trying to have fun with it.

I think it's a bit unfair to place the blame on the Nolan films. After all the Burton movies were full of trying to hard to be a serious. Even though Burton's biggest if not only exposure to the Caped Crusader is very clearly the '66 TV series. The heart of the issue goes back to (primarily) Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns (which is also inspired by the '66 Batman series). Both books are largely responsible for the frankly juvenile attitude about "being mature" that permeates in most comic book super-hero movies and comics today. Modern DC comics had the problem worsen thanks to Identity Crisis which is the poster child for a writer stomping his feet and whining about how the comics he loved weren't for kids by adding rape and murder.
 
Celt Z

Celt Z

Covar said:
Well the Schumacher films were trying to have fun with it.

I think it's a bit unfair to place the blame on the Nolan films. After all the Burton movies were full of trying to hard to be a serious. Even though Burton's biggest if not only exposure to the Caped Crusader is very clearly the '66 TV series. The heart of the issue goes back to (primarily) Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns (which is also inspired by the '66 Batman series). Both books are largely responsible for the frankly juvenile attitude about "being mature" that permeates in most comic book super-hero movies and comics today. Modern DC comics had the problem worsen thanks to Identity Crisis which is the poster child for a writer stomping his feet and whining about how the comics he loved weren't for kids by adding rape and murder.
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I think the Nolan films play a large part in their cinematic mind-set lately. But if we're including comics, then I agree with you. I think part of the problem is that comics can be mature, and they don't always have to appeal to a large age-range, but it seems like DC wants to paint all their characters with the same brush (movie-wise). They need to stop trying to make their movies so uniform and cater to the differences and strengths of their characters.
 
Covar

Covar

Celt Z said:
I think the Nolan films play a large part in their cinematic mind-set lately. But if we're including comics, then I agree with you. I think part of the problem is that comics can be mature, and they don't always have to appeal to a large age-range, but it seems like DC wants to paint all their characters with the same brush (movie-wise). They need to stop trying to make their movies so uniform and cater to the differences and strengths of their characters.
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No doubt. I was mostly looking at super-heroes as a genre rather than any particular medium. I think the Nolan films have the same impact on their movies as Identity Crisis did on their comics. Re-enforcing their flawed thought pattern.

It boggles my mind how well DC understood how to make their characters and universe tick in the 90s, only to fall into the same problem Marvel had at that time.
 
Null

Null

For me, this is why Marvel Cinematic Universe has been rocking it - because there you have people rising to the challenge. You have deeply cynical characters - Nick Fury, Natascha Romanov, Tony Stark, Star-Lord, etc - risking their lives for noble ideals, the ideals that the world can be a better place and that they can overcome their misdeeds to do what's right. You have idealists - Steve Rogers, Phil Coulson - who acknowledge that even if the world fails to live up to their hopes, that doesn't mean the world and their ideals aren't worth the price. You have people who have every right to be bitter about their lives - Hulk, Rocket - throw themselves into harm's way, against their better judgement, to protect the innocent. In short, the MCU gives us Superheroes worthy of the title.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
Marvel made its fame by being exactly a bridge between the fantastic and the real. Spidey is their spokesman in so many ways. He's still (when in the right hands) a guy who loves his superhero job, but he's got real problems. There's a difference between that and this maudlin, crapsack world stuff that keeps coming up again and again, despite what seems like everyone protesting it. Watchmen was a good book, but not everything needs to be Watchmen just because it was good.
 
CynicismKills

CynicismKills

It's always been strange to me that DC cartoons (series and features) and (usually) tv shows can be pretty solid throughout their lifespan (some cut down in their prime, even) but they can consistently miss the mark when it comes to the live-action movies.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

Yeah, I've been saying this for a while. Batman has basically ruined the DCU as a whole. Not just in the movies, but the comics as well. He went from being a more human character to being the mindless, cold, master tactician in the comics. That's not my Batman. My Batman is the one who was the leader of the Outsiders and straight up punched Guy Gardner in the face because he was being a toolbag. Basically, they too the MAN out of Batman and replaced it with a soldier.

Now they want to do that with all their heroes.
 
Null

Null

The other thing is that people tend to overlook that Watchmen is a story of failure. The heroes fail to stop the villain, who turns out to have altruistic goals on the large scale, and yet ultimately he, too, fails - the publication of Rorschach's journal will almost certainly bring the fragile peace crashing down. The surviving heroes are on the run. The godlike character has failed to retain his connection to humanity, and he leaves the solar system, presumably never to return. Millions of people are dead for no real reason. No one wins, and if anything, the heroes have made the situation worse at the end than when it began.

Which is great storytelling and a new spin on the genre, but you can't use it as the basis for a traditional superhero story, because it's a deconstruction of that very idea.
 
Gryfter

Gryfter

See, I think the Nolan Batman were great because the premise was, can we show a realistic story about a man who decides to dress up like a bat and fight crime? And it worked..... for BATMAN. It fails miserable for the rest of the heroes because there is nothing realistic about Aliens, Hidden Amazons, and Aquatic dwelling races, there is nothing real to explore. They are all rooted firmly in the imagination and thus the movies should be big colorful adventure films. DC/WB needs to seriously re-evaluate their modis operandi for their films. It sad that they pay almost no attention to the fact that on TV, their properties are being handled well, and feel like true comic adaptations.
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Bowielee said:
Yeah, I've been saying this for a while. Batman has basically ruined the DCU as a whole. Not just in the movies, but the comics as well. He went from being a more human character to being the mindless, cold, master tactician in the comics. That's not my Batman. My Batman is the one who was the leader of the Outsiders and straight up punched Guy Gardner in the face because he was being a toolbag. Basically, they too the MAN out of Batman and replaced it with a soldier.

Now they want to do that with all their heroes.
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I kid, I kid.

But seriously... I would say the most iconic Batman to me was Batman: The Animated Series. Now that played itself fairly serious, but still took the time to do ridiculous shit like have the Joker send out giant toy soldier robots or turn all the fish in Gotham into smiling facsimiles of himself... and also had Batman doing things like spending Christmas eve drinking coffee with Gordan or trying to help his childhood hero into a better life by re-releasing all his movies and shows. It went lighter, but not silly. I can enjoy stuff like Batman: The Brave and The Bold for what it is, but I get why some people didn't like the off the wall humor.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

I actually loved Batman: The Brave and the Bold. I'm fine with different interpretations of the character, but not when they're basically soulless robots.
 
filmfanatic

filmfanatic

HCGLNS said:
I hope Wonder Woman has an invisible jet.
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I bet she won't.

You know, looking at the path that Warner Bros. seems to be going down for their DC films, I can't help but think about all the projects they were developing before they became committed to what looks to be a huge, potential mess. You want to know some of what they were developing?

They were developing films for characters like Sgt. Rock, Lobo, and the Metal Men.
 
Null

Null

See, if that was the promo poster for a solo Aquaman movie, I'd be stoked. It's a new take on the character and I'd love to see it work as a full 120 minute feature. And the thing is, you really kind of need that, to explain why the King of the Oceans is now turning his attention to fighting crime on the surface world - he needs to be established as a character in the audience's minds, because for most people he's still the douche in the orange sweater from Superfriends. Instead, what we're getting is a movie where he's going to have maybe 20 minutes of screen time and probably 45 seconds of backstory.
 
checkeredhat

checkeredhat

Ravenpoe said:
I think that was a design choice so that they wouldn't have to cover up Jason Momoa's actual tattoos.

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I was going to say, I'm pretty sure Momoa is pretty heavily tattooed. They probably worked out that it would be less work to cover them up with other fake tattoos than to cover them up to look like untattooed skin (I'm still impressed at how well they do this for some other actors- it's crazy)


Anyway, I have very little faith in this movie/ the WB Cinematic Universe. Zach Snyder just is not the guy you want in charge of something like this. But Momoa as Aquaman is something I really look forward to and I am not even an Aquaman fan. All I know is he was pretty cool in Injustice. I've also said before and I'll say it again: Ben Afleck will make a fine Bruce Wayne/ Batman. It's Snyder behind the camera and penning the script that makes me uneasy.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

Also, the whole Unite the Seven thing, does that mean that they're going to have seven members off the bat? That seems like a hell of a lot of characters to introduce in one movie where we have only had exposure to the Superman in this version of the DCU. This is going to be such a mess. There's NO WAY that the average moviegoer is going to be able to accept that. The ONLY reason that Avengers worked like it did was because most of the characters were solidly established in their own projects. Throwing a bunch of bit parts into the new Superman/Batman movie is not going to be sufficient to launch a full JL movie. WB continues to misunderstand how the MCU became successful and will fail miserably in trying to ape it.
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
Also, the whole Unite the Seven thing, does that mean that they're going to have seven members off the bat? That seems like a hell of a lot of characters to introduce in one movie where we have only had exposure to the Superman in this version of the DCU. This is going to be such a mess. There's NO WAY that the average moviegoer is going to be able to accept that. The ONLY reason that Avengers worked like it did was because most of the characters were solidly established in their own projects. Throwing a bunch of bit parts into the new Superman/Batman movie is not going to be sufficient to launch a full JL movie. WB continues to misunderstand how the MCU became successful and will fail miserably in trying to ape it.
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Maybe they'll have some in Batman vs Superman Part 1 and others in Batman vs Superman Part 2. Because that'll solve the problem!

My guess is the movie will have a lot of narrative cuts jumping from scene to scene, maybe a couple establishing flashbacks ... I won't know; I'm not seeing this shit. But I look forward to hearing about it.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

So, obviously, we've got the trinity, Supes, Bats and WW. Now Aquaman confirmed. There's no way in hell Green Lantern is going to be in it after the failure of the movie. So, who will the rest be?
I believe they had already said that Martian Manhunter was out. So, Flash? Arrow? possible TV tie in? if so, The Atom? Wouldn't that be weird? Brandon Routh in the same movie with Henry Cavil playing Superman.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Bowielee said:
So, obviously, we've got the trinity, Supes, Bats and WW. Now Aquaman confirmed. There's no way in hell Green Lantern is going to be in it after the failure of the movie. So, who will the rest be?
I believe they had already said that Martian Manhunter was out. So, Flash? Arrow? possible TV tie in? if so, The Atom? Wouldn't that be weird? Brandon Routh in the same movie with Henry Cavil playing Superman.
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They've said multiple times that the TV shows are a completely separate entity from the movies and won't tie in. Which you would think is a no-brainer to do since you have some of the lesser heroes (lesser to the Trinity) already established, but it's just another reason why WB is failing at this.

Anyway, apparently Green Lantern IS in this - the John Stewart version. And Cyborg is in it, too, since DC has been so gung-ho to push him hard into the League. Which I'm honestly okay with, except for one thing: it pushed Martian Manhunter out the line-up.
 
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