Are there non-religious reasons to be against same-sex marriage?

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So, this spun off from another thread, but I wanted to pose the question here rather than detract from the main purpose of that thread.

So the question is, what are reasons beyond religion that would lead someone to not only be against same-sex marriage, but to want it prohibited from existence? The reason I ask is because with most issues I can in some logical way see the viewpoint of the other side, even if I don't hold it. I'm pro-choice, for example, but I can certainly see why someone would be pro-life (this is another discussion).

For same sex marriage though, I find myself unable to put myself in a viewpoint that would be against it outside of religious reasons. So I turn to you, halforums, let's discuss this.

Obviously, we should keep this discussion civil. If you're going to call anyone names, at least make them funny ones.
 
I think many opponents of same-sex marriage do so out of a dislike of the social change. It's not just a religious text telling them to oppose it; it's the feeling that it is too different, too radical to allow in society.

But that's 100% speculation.
 
I would probably be better off if I didn't participate, but I suppose I'm one of the few that will openly discuss it from this perspective.

The reasoning is underpinned largely by the concept that in our cultural history marriage was defined as "starting a family". Children deserved to be raise by their biological parents. If that wasn't possible, they deserved to be raised in the best situation possible.

Prior to widespread birth control and abortion, people were strongly discouraged from having sex prior to marriage primarily due to the risk of pregnancy and creating a child which would have no strong family unit which would care for it until adulthood. However, society has changed drastically since then. With birth control and abortion we've dropped to the lowest birth rate on record:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...t-ii-u-s-birthrate-falls-to-lowest-on-record/

In fact it turns out that if we didn't have so much immigration, both legal and illegal, we'd be in the same position today as many Asian and some European countries are - too many old people, not enough young people. I'm only pointing this out to indicate that the birthrate would be far lower without immigration, and the graph isn't telling the whole story.

We have evidence that shows children raised in a heterosexual parented house do well, and generally end up contributing members of society.

Right now we don't have much in the way of studies, especially long term studies, regarding children raised in homosexual parented houses. These studies are ongoing, many states allow domestic partners to adopt children, and eventually those studies will show whether this is as good as a heterosexual parented family or not.

Further, those children need to have a reasonable safety net and path of inheritance in case something happens to one or both parents. Thus marriage defines what happens to property upon death. When one parent dies, the property goes to the other parent, and/or to the children - in full consideration of the children. These laws were not designed with the idea that the widow or widower would get the full control of the property for his benefit, but for the benefit of his children.

Marriage was not about finding your life partner, sharing your property with each other, and making decisions for each other when the other is incapacitated. Marriage was about marrying your life partner for the purpose of bringing children into the world and providing a safe stable learning environment where they can then contribute to society as adults.

This started to change with birth control, abortion, and free love, where people were instead encouraged to turn inward to their own needs and desires, and choose families and children as a possible choice out of hundreds, rather than a societal expectation.

Now we have come to another turning point in how our society defines marriage.

Society has a direct interest in making sure children are raised to become productive adults in society, and in growing our society. Right now we know, through long term studies, that children of a single father or a single mother are at a disadvantage when compared to children raised in a home with both a mother and a father. This is not to imply they are better or worse, or that they didn't turn out as good as they could have. Simply that studies show they have fewer opportunities in life to grow and learn comparatively.

The key question is:

Does this difference hinge on the number of parents, or on the dual representation of the sexes as parents?

In other words, are children of a two male parenting or two female parenting at any disadvantage compared to a male/female parenting situation. We don't have the studies that prove either way, and short term studies are going in both directions, seemingly based on who funded them.

So, do we jump in with both feet and allow this redefinition of marriage without enough information on how it will alter society in the long run, or do we wait for a few more decades to find out how the experiments going on in a dozen states and with tens of thousands of children turn out?

I say we wait.

Others say we shouldn't (or, alternately, they point to one or two short term studies that back them up and say "that's enough information, let's go")

That is, insofar as I can tell, the only logical basis for discriminating against LGBT individuals. Every other form of discrimination (job, health, housing, etc) has no excuse, those forms of LGBT discrimination should be done away with.

But marriage is a special case that may directly depend on the constitution of the marriage, and may directly impact society, and this impact may be negative. We should carefully consider and balance the discrimination against society's need for encouraging the best family situation for bringing children into society.
 
I could go a long time with this.

Are there non-religious reasons to be against same-sex marriage?
Because gay sex is yucky!

Are there non-religious reasons to be against same-sex marriage?
Because gay people like to have sex and marriage isn't about sex, it's about babies.


And best of all...

Are there non-religious reasons to be against same-sex marriage?
No.[DOUBLEPOST=1364330442][/DOUBLEPOST]
If it's all about the children, how is outlawing same-sex marriage accomplishing anything? Same-sex couples cannot breed without assistance (artificial insemination, adoption, etc.) and don't need marriage to get children with that assistance.
 
If it's all about the children, how is outlawing same-sex marriage accomplishing anything? Same-sex couples cannot breed without assistance (artificial insemination, adoption, etc.) and don't need marriage to get children with that assistance.
That's actually at the core of the case right now. California already allows domestic partnerships with full services, including the same fertility treatment for homosexual couples as provided to heterosexual couples. It's just not called a "marriage."

So they actually can. Thus, if society accepts these relationships as the core family unit that defines our society, and that our society spends significant resources to support and protect, then these relationships become normal, and even if children raised in such a situation are at a disadvantage, nothing can be done because it's become the new norm.

Society has to be careful how they define marriage primarily to protect the offspring.
 
That's actually at the core of the case right now. California already allows domestic partnerships with full services, including the same fertility treatment for homosexual couples as provided to heterosexual couples. It's just not called a "marriage."

So they actually can. Thus, if society accepts these relationships as the core family unit that defines our society, and that our society spends significant resources to support and protect, then these relationships become normal, and even if children raised in such a situation are at a disadvantage, nothing can be done because it's become the new norm.

Society has to be careful how they define marriage primarily to protect the offspring.
That's a bit of a... I really hate the phrase slippery slope, but I feel like it applies here.

Children born to low income families are also at a disadvantage. Does the government have the right to say that people of low income can't marry?

Depending on the area, children of interracial couples could face bullying and prejudice. Should the government have the right to say interracial couples can't marry?

We can take this one step further, and speak on pregnancy itself rather than marriage, since marriage is only the method of controlling offspring, and we all know that happens whether married or not. Should any mother that finds herself pregnant that can't produce the best possible outcome for her children be forced to give it up for adoption or have an abortion?

These aren't attacks, I do respect stienman's viewpoints and I'm happy he chose to participate, I'm just digging into the discussion.
 
Society has to be careful how they define marriage primarily to protect the offspring.
so wait, if it's been proven by science that single parents hurt children, why don't we define marriage as lasting until every child is 18 / out of the house and ban divorce? or why don't we take every child away from every single parent until they marry another nice straight person?
 
That's actually at the core of the case right now. California already allows domestic partnerships with full services, including the same fertility treatment for homosexual couples as provided to heterosexual couples. It's just not called a "marriage."

So they actually can. Thus, if society accepts these relationships as the core family unit that defines our society, and that our society spends significant resources to support and protect, then these relationships become normal, and even if children raised in such a situation are at a disadvantage, nothing can be done because it's become the new norm.

Society has to be careful how they define marriage primarily to protect the offspring.
Okay ... same question. If marriage is about children and that's the reason same-sex couples shouldn't marry, but same-sex couples can raise children anyway, how is preventing their marriage accomplishing anything? If they're already bypassing it, what difference does it make?
 
I understand the point Stienman is trying to make, but I think it is largely undermined by the argument Charlie has so succinctly exposed.
A much stronger point against the 'traditional marriage' as argumented here is this:
I can understand that you may want to provide the best possible environment to children for their own benefit and the benefit of society, but as long as single parents are allowed to adopt (a quick google search tells me they are), not allowing marriage in same sex couples may actually be detrimental to some kids!
Imagine a situation where a homosexual person adopts a child. That person may have a stable partner and, as a household environment, the child will have two dads or two moms. But wait! Legally they are not. Although they are already bringing up the kid together, one of them doesn't have a say on medical decisions (what happens if the 'official' parent is unavailable) and such and, even worse, what would happen to the kid if the 'official' parent were to die? I think it's quite obvious that, even admitting the possibility of a same sex couple not being able to provide the best environment or upbringing*, separating the kid from their other parent is probably worse. Therefore, in this case they should be allowed to marry, for the protection of the kid, being able to use each other's posessions while taking care of the kid, etc.

*This is also a point to be discussed. I took it for granted here because it didn't matter for my point but I'd like to argue the following:
Even if it is shown it's not 'ideal' for kids to be brought up in such an environment, it would need to be something pretty extreme for it to be enough to decide the whole thing. I mean, there are a few parameters that need to be taken into account to decide wether a household environment is bad, good, or ideal for a kid, and since most of them, such as income, education, etc. are not binary but on a continuum, we establish thresholds were they are 'good enough', independently or taking all of them into account. Homosexuality should, if anything, be one more of these things, weighted in relation to whatever future studies show, not a separate one that trumps all of them!
Furthermore, one could argue wether the problems kids with two moms and two dads face are intrinsic to this fact or are due to discrimination in society. Is it possible to distinguish this? If it is not, studies that are disfavorable to adoption by same sex couples, and following them to the extreme, may very well be a self-perpetuating discrimination. I actually think they are. It's late and I'm tired, and I feel the last couple of paragraphs are much less understandable than they could be, so I'll leave it here for today.

EDIT: I meant both Charlie's and Stienman's first posts[DOUBLEPOST=1364332858][/DOUBLEPOST]
so wait, if it's been proven by science that single parents hurt children, why don't we define marriage as lasting until every child is 18 / out of the house and ban divorce? or why don't we take every child away from every single parent until they marry another nice straight person?
This.
 
It's pretty hard to find a non-religious reason to deny same sex anything and it's honestly pretty hard to find a religious reason (for Christians) that isn't Jesus overridden in the new testament.
 
It's pretty hard to find a non-religious reason to deny same sex anything and it's honestly pretty hard to find a religious reason (for Christians) that isn't Jesus overridden in the new testament.
Well, 1 Timothy 1:9-10 is New Testament and often put forth. Also, many Christians I know personally equate is as bad as any other sexuality immorality (adultery, fornication, etc) and not meriting it's own extraordinary societal emphasis. Their view is that they don't endorse gay marriage but won't oppose it as a legal/rights issue. I do know others who feel more strongly (on both sides), however.


For the interested:

1 Timothy 1:9-10 said:
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine...
 
so wait, if it's been proven by science that single parents hurt children, why don't we define marriage as lasting until every child is 18 / out of the house and ban divorce? or why don't we take every child away from every single parent until they marry another nice straight person?
Because too many law makers have had experience with crazy spouses.
 
stienman - If you're saying the only reason they shouldn't be allowed to be married/adopt children is because they may be bad parents and the children may not come out of the household unscathed how is that any different than being raised by hetero parents? I think there's been plenty of examples of children coming out quite messed up from same-sex marriages no? Still, if your feelings on the subject are requiring studies to show that the kids will be ok how about one from a reliable source that has a 25 year history?
In 2006, after 25 years of research the AAP concluded it had found no link between parents' sexual orientation and their children's emotional well-being.
“The statement by the AAP also reaffirms more than 30 years of social science research that concludes that children grow up with the same positive developmental outcomes whether their parents are of the same gender or different genders,” wrote a Family Equality Council spokesperson on its website. “More importantly, it matches the lived experiences of many of our parents who have raised a generation of children into young adulthood who are successful by every measure.”
(Here is a link to the study)
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/118/1/349.full
It's pretty long, has over 60 different references from psychological and medical reports. I don't know how much more time or studies would be needed to make it clearer.

Here's a few more anyway:
(A book written with 20 years of social sciences taken into account)
http://www.amazon.com/Too-High-Price-Restricting-Parenting/dp/0977758907

(A research summary from the American Psychological Association)
http://www.apa.org/about/policy/parenting.aspx
 
Well, 1 Timothy 1:9-10 is New Testament and often put forth. Also, many Christians I know personally equate is as bad as any other sexuality immorality (adultery, fornication, etc) and not meriting it's own extraordinary societal emphasis. Their view is that they don't endorse gay marriage but won't oppose it as a legal/rights issue. I do know others who feel more strongly (on both sides), however.


For the interested:
That one I've heard quite compelling arguments made by scholars that disagree on that being what the verse actually says and that it's more akin to shady business dealings than homosexuality.
 
That one I've heard quite compelling arguments made by scholars that disagree on that being what the verse actually says and that it's more akin to shady business dealings than homosexuality.
Especially considering that it was written by Paul, a human being. Then we get Jesus himself saying:

Matthew 7:3 said:
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
In otherwords: "Mind your own business and take care of your own damn problems first!"

Sorry, but as a Christian myself, I'm going to listen to the son of God before a human who has his own issues.
 
Huh... that basically describes my day. I always break up at least one man-woman heterosexual marriage every evening.

Dammit, I've been gay all this time and I haven't realized!
 
Reasons I can think of that a non religious person would have issue with gay marriage.

1) It makes a mockery of traditional marriage: Brittney Spears and Kim Kardashian already do it more than we can allow.

2) It's a slippery slope that will lead to ridiculous unions such as men marrying their dogs: Apparently there are dogs out there who are capable of giving their consent to marriage. I was unaware.

3) We will have to completely redefine marriage in school and it will corrupt the children into becoming gay: Because that's how "gay" happens. You hear about it, and then you become it. I'm not sure why it had no effect on me. I guess I'm just immune or something. Kinda like Gary Sinise in The Stand.

When The Gays have taken over, and our population begins to dwindle, it will be up to those with immunity to do our best to repopulate the world. It will be a harsh world. But quite likely a very fabulous one. The Straights will need to hide in plain sight by wearing color coordinated clothing. Those who cannot perfect the lisp will be hunted down and forced to watch the entire current season of Project Runway
 
I just imagined a future where I'm the last remaining straight male, and it's up to me to have sex with women to ensure the survival of the human race.

I can't tell if it's a dystopian or utopian vision of the future.
 
Going back on my points, and answering to Steinman's last post:
Apparently society has more or less accepted single parent families as valid families (for instance, here in Spain they have benefits comparable to the ones of large families). Isn't it comparatively unfair to accept these and not accept same-sex couples? Can you still justify your argument taking this into account? (They are sincere questions, even if a bit loaded)
 
When The Gays have taken over, and our population begins to dwindle, it will be up to those with immunity to do our best to repopulate the world. It will be a harsh world. But quite likely a very fabulous one. The Straights will need to hide in plain sight by wearing color coordinated clothing. Those who cannot perfect the lisp will be hunted down and forced to watch the entire current season of Project Runway
This... kind of offends me more than someone being overtly homophobic...
 
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