Path of Exile (Diablo 2's real sequel)

Rovewin · Feb 25, 2013

That is a terrible route. For starting off a route this would be better http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-...kUeeuMfswGXA-oLT7qlcN2WEZLiftffU9DySLfLvzccT2
It takes you through your 1handed melee nodes to up its damage, then leaves you right near a sword node and the templar start area to grab his health and one handed damage nodes as well. Heck you can grab another 20 dex while you are in there too if you need it. There is a 30 intelligence node if you want that too. You are right by resolute technique. Plus you got the shield bonus as well. Then you can easily go down lower left, grab the sword and health nodes. Then work down towards blood magic or unwavering stance or whatever you want grabbing sword and health nodes along the way. There is also another dex node near blood magic and that sword node that you can have too.

Another way to hold out until you get to a dex node is with items. Rings and amulets are good. If you sell a green blue and red gem with any amulet, you get an amulet that gives you plus to all stats. Experiment with different gems to get one that gives you plus 20 and that should hold you til you are able to work around to one.

Dave · Feb 25, 2013

It's me as well, remember? It's a FIGHTER. Fighters should be able to use any weapon. They should not have to jump through hoops to be able to use the most common weapon on the friggin' planet.

Frank · Feb 25, 2013

I'd say clubs and maces would be way more common than swords, especially in such a shitty place.

Necronic · Feb 25, 2013

Dave said:
It's me as well, remember? It's a FIGHTER. Fighters should be able to use any weapon. They should not have to jump through hoops to be able to use the most common weapon on the friggin' planet.

You simply will not be able to make a good endgame character that can use both a Mace and a Sword without severely gimping the build. One is a pure dex weapon, the other is a pure strength weapon. You can do it with a sword, or with a mace, but not both. Well.....maybe you could even do both but it would be pretty hard to do that and not end up with too many nodes wasted on stats.

Think of it this way, you are tuning yourself to be a true master of a weapon. You wouldn't expect a Sword Saint in D&D to be good with an axe would you?

Dave · Feb 25, 2013

Necronic said:
You simply will not be able to make a good endgame character that can use both a Mace and a Sword without severely gimping the build. One is a pure dex weapon, the other is a pure strength weapon. You can do it with a sword, or with a mace, but not both. Well.....maybe you could even do both but it would be pretty hard to do that and not end up with too many nodes wasted on stats.

Think of it this way, you are tuning yourself to be a true master of a weapon. You wouldn't expect a Sword Saint in D&D to be good with an axe would you?

I would expect them to be able to still use another weapon effectively. They are still a fighter, regardless of the prestige class taken later on.

Necronic · Feb 25, 2013

Ok, lets look at the reppurcussions of that. At the highest difficulty levels there really aren't varying levels of effectiveness. It's either "it works" or "you die". So, with that said, the ability to use all weapons effectively would mean:

1) No weapon specific nodes on the talent tree (because we wouldn't want one weapon to be more effective than another)
2) No crit/stun build/elemental nodes on the talent tree (because we wouldn't want one weapon to be more effective than another)
3) No synergy between any nodes and weapon types, basically weapons would have to be interchangeable parts or the talent tree would have to be scrapped.

You can't have a jack of all trades in a game like this. You can build your character so that he can use swords, or hammers, or wands. But he can't do all of them effectively, if he could then what's the point of the tree?

Dave · Feb 25, 2013

He can't do any of them effectively with the exception of hammers, according to you.

Azurephoenix · Feb 25, 2013

Hey, it could be worse... it could be like Diablo 3 where the weapon type you use is completly and utterly meaningless other than for looks.

Bowielee · Feb 25, 2013

I'd like to see some sort of happy medium. I'll give this a shot when I actually have time to dig into the talent trees. As it stands it gives me flashbacks to the FF10 sphere grid and I literally don't have the time to waste my time on it.

Necronic · Feb 25, 2013

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. He can do any of them, it just ends up making for a more complicated build. But by the end of the game (middle really) you have to start focusing heavily in one area. The more you play the more you learn to recognize certain regions in the tree. Summoning is nw, duel wield is se, shield is w, ES is ne. Knowing that along with the key nodes (like Iron reflexes or Resolute Technique or CI). So while you can build a CI-ES Marauder, it's very tricky. An Iron reflexes sword build is easier, but add a shield and it gets trickier.

Dave · Feb 25, 2013

Right, because no fighter should be able to easily use a sword and shield.[DOUBLEPOST=1361832205][/DOUBLEPOST]For the record, I like this game, but I think the passive trees and the way they handle stats is just dumb and needlessly complicated. You say it gives you many choices, I say it limits them. If you find out you are 30 levels in and you fucked up then you are just totally screwed and should start again. They need to have respecs at the very least. (Besides the 1 or two points here and there that don't matter.)

Bowielee · Feb 25, 2013

Dave said:
Right, because no fighter should be able to easily use a sword and shield.[DOUBLEPOST=1361832205][/DOUBLEPOST]For the record, I like this game, but I think the passive trees and the way they handle stats is just dumb and needlessly complicated. You say it gives you many choices, I say it limits them. If you find out you are 30 levels in and you fucked up then you are just totally screwed and should start again. They need to have respecs at the very least. (Besides the 1 or two points here and there that don't matter.)

THIS X 1,000,000,000

It's the number one reason that I can't even consider getting into the game.

Dave · Feb 25, 2013

Again, I DO like this game. And at the price of...free...it's well worth it. I've seen games that were $60 be less polished. I just think it could be better.

And I did spend $20 on a micro-transaction to get more stash tabs, even though I hardly use it. I wanted to support the guys & gals who made this.

Necronic · Feb 25, 2013

Yeah you will definitely play a bunch of characters and have them crap out at 30ish. It's happened to me wih about 4 characters so far. But you keep the currency and you get to try something new each time, which to me is a lot of fun.

CynicismKills · Feb 25, 2013

Necronic said:
Yeah you will definitely play a bunch of characters and have them crap out at 30ish. It's happened to me wih about 4 characters so far. But you keep the currency and you get to try something new each time, which to me is a lot of fun.

It's funny because that's exactly where I am so far. My Templar and Duelist are both just about level 30.

Necronic · Feb 25, 2013

Fuck me....just figured out that my shadow build wont work. I can still respec it but it will be costly

CynicismKills · Feb 25, 2013

I hopped back on my Templar, trying to figure out what I was doing with him. He's mainly going str and 2h damage, so I have to figure out what to do from there. If I could find some more decent long-range spells I'd like to make him a bit of a Shaman type character with 2h staves or mauls, and then focus on spell dps from here on out. I'd love to turn him into a Deathknight, going 2h damage with curses and auras, but the passive points for those are waaaaaaaaaaaay off from where I am for now.

GasBandit · Feb 25, 2013

Necronic said:
Yet again though, let me ask the more obvious question. WHY do you want to use swords? Swords are a dex/crit weapon. Mauraders aren't well positioned for dex/crit. You can still do it, but like you pointed out, you have to go pretty far out of your way.

Is it purely an aesthetic thing? You know this isn't Hello Kitty Island Adventure right?

Swords are only a dex/crit weapon because the eggheads at Grinding Gear Games (and I hate that name too, it brings back horrible flashbacks of MMOs I now hate) decided to make them such. I wanted to play a sword'n'board tank. This is the first fantasy game I have played ever to statistically insist to me that I have to spend points being a nancy to swing a sword. Even a super duper gigantic ultraclaymore zweihander, I've found, has a dex requirement whereas a hammer of equal (or even lesser size) does not. It's completely immersion shattering - it's an arbitrary ruleset for its own sake designed to add an extra, obfuscating, unnecessary layer of calculus to the experience. It wouldn't be so bad if there were some dex nodes stationed in the same spot as the one hand damage nodes for marauders, but as it stands, when my copper sword was to be replaced around level 12 by a saber (which requires dex), I would have had to level 13 MORE times to be able to do so? Does that not strike you as mindblowingly poor design? I know, I know, the fanboys and stat whores will just shrug and say "so whatever use a hammer." That's not how that's supposed to work. Every sword is not an epee.[DOUBLEPOST=1361857379][/DOUBLEPOST]

Dave said:
Right, because no fighter should be able to easily use a sword and shield.[DOUBLEPOST=1361832205][/DOUBLEPOST]For the record, I like this game, but I think the passive trees and the way they handle stats is just dumb and needlessly complicated. You say it gives you many choices, I say it limits them. If you find out you are 30 levels in and you fucked up then you are just totally screwed and should start again. They need to have respecs at the very least. (Besides the 1 or two points here and there that don't matter.)

Yes, the passive trees are horrible. But... don't they have respecs? Do those 2 respec points I have that I never used just undo ONE node? THAT would be full blown pants-on-head retarded.

CynicismKills · Feb 26, 2013

There's no full respec. You use Orbs of Regret or the Respec Points from quests to drop talents.

GasBandit · Feb 26, 2013

CynicismKills said:
There's no full respec. You use Orbs of Regret or the Respec Points from quests to drop talents.

That said... still playing. Though I probably will stop when I get to the point where I suddenly realize I'm not allowed to live any more because of how I manipulated an arcane, inscrutable, arbitrary and apparently unforgiving game mechanic from the start.

Frank · Feb 26, 2013

GasBandit said:
That said... still playing. Though I probably will stop when I get to the point where I suddenly realize I'm not allowed to live any more because of how I manipulated an arcane, inscrutable, arbitrary and apparently unforgiving game mechanic from the start.

Well, we know why Necronic likes it.

Bubble181 · Feb 26, 2013

Okay, a few things, but bear in mind I haven't played the game. I don't have the time to play a game where you're practically forced to restart a couple of times at level 30 until you've got the right build. (I played through both Diablo III and Torchlight II exactly once. I'd play T2 again but I just don't have the time)
Dave, you seem to be confusing something. You're saying you want a fighter. But you're not playing one. Similar to GB: he wants to make a sword&board fighter. Fair enough....But then why start out as a Marauder? Yes, in D&D, the base class would be Fighter. That class isn't around here. For S&B, I'd imagine "Templar" would be a more obvious starting point. For a true Sword Master, you'd probably be a duelist or something. Yes, they're hybrid fighter classes. But a Marauder, who's "pure strength" isn't a Fighter in D&D, he's a Barbarian. You can make a Barbarian that uses S&B, but it isn't exactly the most efficient way.

And GB, as far as "even a Zweihander needs dex, whereas a mace or hammer doesn't"....Well, you go and try those in real life. If you're going to be using a big sword without finesse, you're just using it as a big bludgeoning tool. Admittedly, by the late medieval era, most heavy swords and two-handers were used as a bludgeoning device, but still. Using a sword for swordfighting does require some agility. I'd hope the dex requirement on a Bastard Sword would be lower than that of an epee, and the strength requirement higher. That's not "shitty design", that's "fine-tuned differences". A dagger just takes lots of dex. An epee takes practically no strength, lots of dex. A longsword takes equal measures of both. A heavy sword takes more strength than dex. A maul requires no dex to speak of.

That said, if I actually played, I might find that too granular and limiting, myself - but I don't think it's a design flaw, necessarily.
As alast point, why are they making so much of this passive tree? It's nice, sure, but it doesn't look that much more elaborate than, say, Skyrim's Constellations?

Necronic · Feb 26, 2013

Frank said:
Well, we know why Necronic likes it.

God forbid I appreciate a challenge.

Also thanks for pointing that out Bubbles, I was going to say that swords DO require dex in real life.

ed: And fwiw if you don't like having to respec/risking making a bad character, then do your research. There are a million good builds on the forums. You can either copy those flat out or use them to learn the tree better. I definitely appreciate that most people don't have the time to create 20 characters to get a feel for the game, but there are many ways to avoid that.

The fact that there isn't a respec option really shouldn't matter, your build should be well thought out from the beginning. This game requires a lot of forward thinking and patience. Which is weird since it's a twitchy hack and slash, but there it is.

Dave · Feb 26, 2013

Necronic said:
God forbid I appreciate a challenge.

Also thanks for pointing that out Bubbles, I was going to say that swords DO require dex in real life.

2-handed swords do NOT. In fact, they took damned little dex at all. They would heft them up and let them fall on the heads of the enemy. There was damned little finesse in fighting with a 2-handed weapon.

Necronic · Feb 26, 2013

2Hers represent a bit of an issue, no doubt. You could argue that all 2hs should require extra strength, which they don't. It really is a bit absurd to have straight dex on a 2h anything.

But you have to admit that the point stands for the 1hers. It is necessary for the design of the game that one of them be pure dex. Between an axe, a mace, and a sword, the sword is clearly the most dex oriented of them.

ed: It's also probably worth pointing out that, in terms of immersion, Landsknetch are clearly duelists, not mauraders. Which would make swords easy for them to use.

Dave · Feb 26, 2013

Depends on the sword. In this game all swords are the same, while all axes are the same as are all the hammers.

Necronic · Feb 26, 2013

I'm really going to stick to my point that immersion wise Landsknetch are duelists, and there are strong 2H sword duelist builds. I mean, just google a picture of them. They are definitely a lot more Johnny Depp than Arnold Swartzennager

Ed: And immersion wise Battle Pope is a Templar.

Bubble181 · Feb 26, 2013

Dave said:
Depends on the sword. In this game all swords are the same, while all axes are the same as are all the hammers.

In contrast, giving all two-handed weapons, axe, pole-arm, mace, maul, hammer, sword, the same requirements would make them little more than an esthetic choice. You can play around a bit with attack speeds and reach, maybe damage types (well, no - if you're using your twohanded sword as a bludgeoning tool, you're doing the same type of damage as a hammer), but in the end, they probably added different requirements to differentiate the weapons more. It may be game logic, but then again, you're playing a game.

Frank · Feb 26, 2013

Holy fuck, this is stupid. Arguing the realism of how a weapon is wielded in a game where you put gems into a weapon in order to shoot blasts of magical fire with your innate pool of mystical mana. They made swords dex weapons so there'd be a difference between duelists and that other class I'm suddenly drawing a blank on at 7 am and marauders not because of some nonsense about how swords require dexterity to use realistically.

Dave · Feb 26, 2013

Frank said:
Holy fuck, this is stupid. Arguing the realism of how a weapon is wielded in a game where you put gems into a weapon in order to shoot blasts of magical fire with your innate pool of mystical mana.

They are using the realism argument, I'm using the argument that the game makes you choose a weapon at 5th level and you can't change it because doing so screws you. Hell, Mr. "You gotta plan way ahead" Necronic just posted above saying he screwed up his build and keeps saying he's screwed them up. If someone that is THAT anal about the game can screw it up, how can anyone get it right? It's the Eve Online of RPGs.

Necronic · Feb 26, 2013

Thing is though I'm not that anal, which is why I keep screwing up. I consider myself a "Maverick", I'm trying to find somethig outside of the box that will work. It's how I got through A2 Inferno in Diablo before the difficulty nerf and before the vast majority of players. It's just that in this game it can get very expensive when you make mistakes. I still think I can fix this build, it's just going to be tough.

Bowielee · Feb 26, 2013

Necronic said:
God forbid I appreciate a challenge.

Also thanks for pointing that out Bubbles, I was going to say that swords DO require dex in real life.

ed: And fwiw if you don't like having to respec/risking making a bad character, then do your research. There are a million good builds on the forums. You can either copy those flat out or use them to learn the tree better. I definitely appreciate that most people don't have the time to create 20 characters to get a feel for the game, but there are many ways to avoid that.

The fact that there isn't a respec option really shouldn't matter, your build should be well thought out from the beginning. This game requires a lot of forward thinking and patience. Which is weird since it's a twitchy hack and slash, but there it is.

I shouldn't have to do homework just to play a game. If we were talking about min/maxing, I'd understand, but from what I'm hearing, if you fuck up your build, you literally can't proceed with the game. That's stupid as hell.

GasBandit · Feb 26, 2013

Someone who says a 2 handed hammer doesn't require dexterity has never tried to drive a spike into the ground. Yes, swords "require" dexterity in real life... to the extent that swinging ANYTHING does. Here's an idea - Play baseball. Does it require real life dexterity to hit the ball? I'd say so. It's silly for the gaming system to imply that using a (non-fencing) sword requires more dexterity than using a hammer. And not just "to use it best," to use it AT ALL. I mean, give my marauder a saber and he'll be all "I have no fucking clue how this works, it's WAY more complicated than the copper sword I was using before. How do I hold it? Do I put it between my fingers? Hold it with my ass cheeks? I'M MYSTIFIED BECAUSE MY DEX IS TOO LOW SO I CAN'T EVEN TRY TO HOLD IT IN MY HAND."

That... is stupid. Of the designers.

Necronic · Feb 26, 2013

Name a game that has a complex leveling system that doesn't require effor on the part of the user to develop an optimized character for end game.

WoW: insanely min-maxed. Respec is easier but gear grinding is incredibly important

D2: same as this game, worse really since there is no way to respec and only 1-2 viable end game builds per class

D3: No leveling system really but an insane gearing min maxing required

EvE: Gearing is incredibly min/maxed, leveling doesn't really exist in the traditional sense but you have to focus/plan

Morrowind and/or Oblivion: insanely min/max leveling, to the point that you would take skills you couldn't accidentally level so that you would get the max stat gain on level. No respec.

Borderlands 1/2: never played end game much but I assume you min/max your tree. And have fun being good with every gun.

Only games I can think of where you didn't min max for end game that much are Skyrim, which had a terrible difficulty scaling.

Remember; you do get a lot of respec points. With these and orbs of regret you can repair a build.

Dave · Feb 26, 2013

WoW: Respec all you want or use dual trees.

D2: You can respec once per difficulty after the Den of Evil (and again by combining the essences of the stage bosses into a respec token).

D3: Sucks.

EvE: The game for Accountants.

Morrowind/Oblivion: No respec necessary. Yes, the leveling system was broken, but that was only because if you had your main skills as your primary, you'd level so fast there's no way you'd get to end game. Not even remotely the same game, though. I could use any weapon I wanted, just one may not be as effective because I hadn't trained it up.

Borderlands: You can respec all you want. And use any gun, even though you might suck at some of them.

At level 30 in PoE I've seen a grand total of 4 respec points and 1 orb. And since I didn't find them all at once, repairing a build was problematic. Unless you discover it right away it's not worth your time to try and fix.