[News] Israel will never satisfy its lust for dead women and children

[Necronic]

Huh, I had the 3 billion number but the number I had for the Israeli military budget was 6 bil.

Anywho. That's an interesting point. So do you think that the only reason Israel doesn't just go full out full spectrum warrior on Palestine is potential to lose US military aid?

That just seems so damned backward. On the other hand one of the other largest recipients of military aid from us is Egypt. If we were funding Israel to directly help protect them then we wouldn't be simultaneously funding Egypt.

However, if we were protecting Israel "from itself" by tying our aid to them (and Egypt) to an understanding that they limited exercise of military power...

Man. That's sort of fucked up, but it also makes a lot of sense. We're arming them to keep them from using their arms in ways we don't like. We DID cut off military aid after the Qibya massacre iirc.

This is why US is a world power. And also why we kind of suck. If I inderstand this correctly.

 

[Eriol]

Egypt hasn't been interested in getting "into" the conflict there since the late 70s? 80s? The guy (Nasser I think) got assassinated for establishing "regular" relations with Israel. Other alliances (Saudi) are somewhat weirder with regards to this conflict. They have a border with Gaza though, which they keep closed (if possible).

 

[AshburnerX]

Egypt hasn't been interested in getting "into" the conflict there since the late 70s? 80s? The guy (Nasser I think) got assassinated for establishing "regular" relations with Israel. Other alliances (Saudi) are somewhat weirder with regards to this conflict. They have a border with Gaza though, which they keep closed (if possible).

No one wants 7 million unemployed people showing up on their doorstep. If Egypt and Israel trade blows again, it's going to be if Israel dissolves Palestine and millions of Arabs are suddenly trying their luck away from the people who just blew up their home. It'll be on the Sinnai and it'll be quick, but it'll happen.

 

[Eriol]

No one wants 7 million unemployed people showing up on their doorstep. If Egypt and Israel trade blows again, it's going to be if Israel dissolves Palestine and millions of Arabs are suddenly trying their luck away from the people who just blew up their home. It'll be on the Sinnai and it'll be quick, but it'll happen.

If they can get there. The Gaza/Egypt border is just as fenced off and secured as the one with Israel. Getting "through" isn't a simple thing.

I was more directing my comments on how funding both Israel and Egypt militarily isn't necessarily a conflict of interest, that's all.

 

[Necronic]

Ok but there's definitely a LOT of bad blood there. And as unstable as Egypt is who knows what next years policy will be.

ed: That is a truly excellent article Steinman.

 

[Hailey Knight]

I'm curious how a peaceful protest would be treated. Not the useless U.S. kind with posters, but more Salt March.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

from The Guardian's live coverage today:

Summary

We're going to wrap up our live blog coverage for the day. Here's a summary of where things stand:

• Diplomatic efforts in Cairo led by US secretary of state John Kerry failed to produce a ceasefire deal in the Gaza conflict. The diplomats were to resume work in Paris on Saturday.
• There were signs the Israeli military operation was preparing to expand. The Israeli defense minister told troops in the field, "you need to be ready for the possibility that very soon we will instruct the military to significantly broaden the ground operation in Gaza."
• 864 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict and at least 5,730 have been wounded, according to the health ministry.
• 160,487 displaced people filled 83 UNRWA shelters in Gaza,according to the agency's latest count.
• Two Israeli soldiers were killed in Gaza Friday. 35 Israeli soldiers have been killed since the start of the conflict.
• Large protests unfolded on Friday in the West Bank, with multiple violent clashes. At least five Palestinians were killed, including one shot dead by a settler from a passing car.
• The IDF said it had discovered 30 tunnels out of Gaza,detroyed "30-40% of Hamas' rocket arsenal" and "eliminated over 240 terrorists."
• Strikes on Gaza continued late on Friday. An unnamed US official said Netanyahu agreed to a US proposal for a 12-hour 'pause' in strikes Saturday.
• Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah pledged full support on Friday to "our brothers in Gaza".
• An Israeli police spokesman said a lone cell not operating under Hamas leadership was responsible for the abduction and killing of three Israeli teens last month.
• A UN team had to cut short a visit to the scene of Thursday's attackon a school in Beit Hanoun when it encountered gunfire

At least now people can drop that stuff about Hamas killing the Israeli teens, if anyone cares about the truth at this point.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...palestinian-protesters-west-bank-live-updates

 

[Frank]

So, a hospital and refugee camp in Gaza were hit by airstrikes.

IDF response:

NBC:

 

[Krisken]

This was fun.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Ah yes Russell Brand, exactly who I was waiting to weigh in on the Israel-Palestine situation.

 

[Terrik]

Is he starting another revolution again?

 

[Krisken]

Ah yes Russell Brand, exactly who I was waiting to weigh in on the Israel-Palestine situation.

I normally dont care for him much either. Here though he spends most of his time making fun of Hannity and his "debate" style. Even you can get behind that.

 

[GasBandit]

I normally dont care for him much either. Here though he spends most of his time making fun of Hannity and his "debate" style. Even you can get behind that.

Sure, Ad Hominems always prove the superiority of one's ill-informed opinion.

 

[jwhouk]

The worst thing about all of this is that people are dying. Doesn't matter what side of the fence they're on.

 

[PatrThom]

Sure, Ad Hominems always prove the superiority of one's ill-informed opinion.

Of course you would say that.

--Patrick

 

[GasBandit]

Of course you would say that.

--Patrick

Careful, that's courting a fallacious argumentum ad knuckle sandwich.

 

[PatrThom]

Careful, that's courting a fallacious argumentum ad knuckle sandwich.

--Patrick

 

[GasBandit]

View attachment 15481

--Patrick

I know,I got it. When have I ever actually threatened anyone with physical violence here, eh?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

If you'd like to follow Israel's wanton destruction of UN schools and murder of sleeping children:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...vists-as-it-maintains-offensive-live-coverage

Summary

• The Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, has once more said that he will not agree to a ceasefire that stops Israel continuing the destruction of the Gaza border tunnels. The chief of Israeli forces in Gaza said yesterday that their destruction was “a few days away”.
• Israel has continued heavy shelling of Gaza despite international condemnation of the bombing of a UN school yesterday that killed at least 17. Rocket fire has continued from Gaza.
• The UN human rights chief Navi Pillay has accused Israel of “deliberate defiance” of international law. She said of attacks on homes, schools, hospitals and UN premises that “none of this appears to me to be accidental”. Pillay also said that by placing and firing rockets, Hamas was committing “a violation of international humanitarian law, therefore a war crime.”
• The latest death toll in Gaza, according to the health ministry, is 1,364, including 315 children, with 6,780 injured.Fifty-six Israeli soldiers have been killed and more than 400 wounded. Three civilians have been killed in Palestinian shelling in Israel.
• The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) says that eight journalists have been killed since the start of the Gaza offensive. It said that Israel “must be held accountable for these atrocities”.

UN calls Israel a disgrace to the world

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel

The United States continues to give Israel ammunition to increase the number of schools destroyed at the same time they firmly ask Israel to maybe stop killing so many children:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/us-firm-condemnation-shelling-un-school-gaza

 

[Hailey Knight]

That's not surprising. South Park hit the nail on the head years ago when an episode suggested the United States was founded on the premise of "say one thing and do another".

Israel would really like Russia to do another stupid thing and draw attention from this.

Even taking account of Arafat walking away, and now Hamas, seems there's never been much power for the people suffering in all this. They have people with guns telling them to fight Israel, they have people with guns telling them to fight Hamas, they have countries telling them Do Not Enter. And while trapped, Israel now bombs the shit out of them because to Israel, the only way to Hamas is through their human shields. The death toll names how many Palestinians are dead and how many Israelis, but I wonder if they know how many of those Palestinians belonged to Hamas. Has all this killed the leaders of Hamas? Has it led to the death of even one ordinary member of Hamas? Has Israel accomplished anything? Far as they're concerned, they can never stop this attack. The moment the Palestinians have time to collect themselves, there would be a massive push to join Hamas.

I have to wonder if Israel will actually stop this themselves before they've flattened Gaza. I agree with the U.N. that the collateral damage seems intentional. "Hamas, you're hiding your weapons behind children? Then we will kill children. You have members in hospitals? We will blow up hospitals." Even if those weapons or Hamas members have already left the premises, gotta be sure, yeah? I mean, have they thought of where this ends? Earlier in the thread, Charlie suggested it wouldn't end until Israel backs down, but another possible end is the elimination of anyone who isn't Israeli in that area.

Legit question, I am curious, is there any consequence Israel would face if they attempted an ethnic cleansing?

 

[tegid]

I am curious, is there any consequence Israel faces for attempting an ethnic cleansing?

AFAIK no, the UN has no real power, and Israel does not accept the authority of the International Criminal Court and the UN has no real power. So the only consequences would be whatever measures specific countries or groups of countries (such as the US or EU) threaten with or just take afterwards.

 

[Necronic]

If they really go too far, to the level of "ethnic cleansing", they would lose all backing from the United States and NATO and probably be attacked en mass by Jordan/Syria/Saudi/etc etc. They've lost US backing before when they've gone too far.

 

[Espy]

If they really go too far, to the level of "ethnic cleansing", they would lose all backing from the United States and NATO and probably be attacked en mass by Jordan/Syria/Saudi/etc etc. They've lost US backing before when they've gone too far.

Would they? I'm not so sure. Honestly I think a lot of people, especially far right evangelical christians would find some easy ways to justify it. And politicians are far to scared to lose the political capital that comes with supporting Israel. Besides, it wouldn't an "ethnic cleansing" it would "defending themselves".

 

[Dave]

If they really go too far, to the level of "ethnic cleansing", they would lose all backing from the United States and NATO and probably be attacked en mass by Jordan/Syria/Saudi/etc etc. They've lost US backing before when they've gone too far.

So intentionally shelling schools and UN refugee areas aren't enough? Guess not.

Senate votes to give $225 million to Israel.

US Condemns Shelling of School...but Pentagon restocks Israeli ammunition.

So I guess as long as it's little Muslim kids are being killed it's fine.

 

[GasBandit]

How many civilians died in bombing raids in any given major war of the last hundred years? It's a sad fact of war that innocents die in it. Israel does what it has to do to ensure its security and continued survival. How many thousands of rocket launches should they have to put up with before they act? The villains here are Hamas, for putting materiel under bassinets, and the UN is, as usual, filled with hypocrites and malefactors.

 

[Dave]

I agree that Hamas is the villain. But the places that are being shelled are NOT Hamas. If Hamas were hiding behind human shields in these cases I could understand, but they were not. These were UN sanctioned and INSPECTED places that were supposed to be neutral humanitarian sanctuaries. But fuck it. I guess Israel can do no wrong. I mean, it's perfectly reasonable that if someone throws a rock at me I should be allowed to kill them, their families, and anyone else whom I think they might know. Because, you know, defending myself. There has to be some level of proportionality.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

The villains here are Hamas, .

Calling either side Heroes and Villains shows a grade-school understanding of what's going on.

 

[Hailey Knight]

How many civilians died in bombing raids in any given major war of the last hundred years? It's a sad fact of war that innocents die in it. Israel does what it has to do to ensure its security and continued survival. How many thousands of rocket launches should they have to put up with before they act? The villains here are Hamas, for putting materiel under bassinets, and the UN is, as usual, filled with hypocrites and malefactors.

But as I asked on the last page, how much damage have they actually done to Hamas in this latest push?

Would they? I'm not so sure. Honestly I think a lot of people, especially far right evangelical christians would find some easy ways to justify it. And politicians are far to scared to lose the political capital that comes with supporting Israel. Besides, it wouldn't an "ethnic cleansing" it would "defending themselves".

For some, the Crusades never ended.

 

[Dave]

Calling either side Heroes and Villains shows a grade-school understanding of what's going on.

I would disagree with this. Hamas is the one that has kept things going on a war footing when several times Palestine and Israel have tried to keep the peace. Hamas is the one that continually breaks cease fires or refuses them altogether. They are also the ones who use the human shields, which then makes it problematic for Israel to defend itself when such is called for. My whole issue is the level of proportionality and how innocents are being specifically targeted by Israel, even though they know damned well Hamas is not present.

 

[GasBandit]

Calling either side Heroes and Villains shows a grade-school understanding of what's going on.

I didn't call Israel heroes, just said they're doing what they have to. However, Hamas is definitely villainous.

I agree that Hamas is the villain. But the places that are being shelled are NOT Hamas.

The IDF said rockets got launched, and they shot back in the direction of the rocket launch. The thing about artillery shells is, they blow up big and aren't precision-guided.

Didn't you at one point suggest someone's teeth would make a good addition to your collection?

Pfft, that's not a threat, that's an award.

But as I asked on the last page, how much damage have they actually done to Hamas in this latest push?

That will be difficult to quantify for some time even after the shooting stops and the rubble is cleared.

 

[Espy]

I think it's super clear Hamas is bad, bad, bad. On many levels. These are guys who WANT Israel to kill women and children for the press. The problem is Israel is killing women and children and going, "Meh". So they aren't exactly the shiny heroes here either.

 

[Dave]

The thing about artillery shells is, they blow up big and aren't precision-guided.

Man. I love ya, Gas, but you have NO IDEA how accurate military grade hardware is these days. They could be using laser-guided missiles that can blow up a barrel from 100 miles away. But instead Israel decided to use large, indiscriminate ordinance? If that is true, then that's even more evil and wrong.

 

[GasBandit]

Man. I love ya, Gas, but you have NO IDEA how accurate military grade hardware is these days. They could be using laser-guided missiles that can blow up a barrel from 100 miles away. But instead Israel decided to use large, indiscriminate ordinance? If that is true, then that's even more evil and wrong.

Patriot missiles cost $2 million each. Hamas' rockets cost a few thousand, tops. One of the methods Hamas uses against Israel is economic warfare in so far as trying to attack them as cheaply as possible while trying to force them to defend themselves or retaliate as expensively as possible. The hardware exists that you describe, certainly. But mandating it must be used every time for every problem is unrealistic.

 

[Hailey Knight]

I don't think Israel's motives are purely defensive. I think there is an element of vengeance here. I also think their level of frustration with the situation has gotten to the point that the "meh" attitude prevails; they're tired of this conflict to the point that they don't care anymore who goes down at the end of it, they just want it over with at any cost. I mean, I get it, they're human, they're angry.

But again, do they see that as the end goal here? Do they think their present actions will bring an end to this or exacerbate it? Will this really solve any of Israel's problems?

I feel like if this was the U.S. in Israel's position, opinions would shift differently, mainly because of the "say one thing, do another". Israel isn't expressing a regret for the loss of life while killing people, whereas the U.S. would totally be doing that to try appearing more sympathetic as the shellings continued. And it's not like the U.S. wouldn't do this if the cartels really took over Mexico and began threatening our borders with levels of violence that would make Hamas look sweet.

My wife hasn't followed any of this for years and asked me to break it down simply for her. I told her there was no way to do that. It just isn't simple.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Actually we changed our ground strategy in Iraq due to this early on in the most recent war.

And it cost us many, many more American lives than it would have if we simply went to town like the Israeli's are doing.

And now Iraq wants us to do air strikes.
Wooooooo ...[DOUBLEPOST=1406819185,1406819125][/DOUBLEPOST]

It would be similar to Michigan attacking Ontario, and Ontario engaging in a ground war with Michigan, in terms of population.

That totally puts everything into perfect perspective; I can absolutely visualize those two cities in that respective manner.